Aggressive and Strong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby middleway on Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:05 am

His ground positioning was really good but it looked to me like he was using his strength to put Heath into positions and keep him in positions


IMHO in a fight you use your main skills. one of Lesners MAIN skills is his STRENGTH. It is one of his 'principles' if you will. If you are as big as him .. .then you use it... if your not you use your other skills ... that is exactely the way it SHOULD be. It would be ridiculous for Lesner to not take advantage of his high level of power and strength.

Personally i believe 'strength' should be concidered a skill ... i mean it takes one hell of alot to achieve.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:20 am

middleway wrote:
His ground positioning was really good but it looked to me like he was using his strength to put Heath into positions and keep him in positions


IMHO in a fight you use your main skills. one of Lesners MAIN skills is his STRENGTH. It is one of his 'principles' if you will. If you are as big as him .. .then you use it... if your not you use your other skills ... that is exactely the way it SHOULD be. It would be ridiculous for Lesner to not take advantage of his high level of power and strength.

Personally i believe 'strength' should be concidered a skill ... i mean it takes one hell of alot to achieve.
I didn't mean that in a bad way. It was simply an observation. I try to use my size and strength as an advantage too.

Using strength is a skill and the strength of a person like Brock does take a lot of time to develop. However is someone has a skill like good takedowns, we talk about takedown defense and ways to counter or deal with that skill. When it comes to aggressiveness and strength we either talk down about it like its low level, act like its not an issue and if you are good size and strength doesn't matter, or think that you just have to be bigger, faster, and stronger.

No one wants to talk about actual strategies or tactics about how to deal with a larger, stronger, and more aggressive opponent. One of the reasons we talk about internal skills being valuable is because no matter how big and strong you are there is always someone bigger and stronger. But good does all this internal training do if you don't know how to use it against someone who is bigger and stronger and very aggressive?
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby lars on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:34 am

I didnt see the fight... A youtube link would be most welcome, but first thought against a crazyadrenalinpumpedmegasizefreak chargin right at ya, is of course to get the fuck out of there, but if you have to deal with it, then a kick to the knees would be what I would try. Having never had to do that, I have no idea if its possible to pull it off. Thats ofcourse part of the neverending discussion about dangerous techniques vs. something you can train realistic with a partner, that its pretty difficult to practise safely, so very difficult to know if its completely unrealistic...
I do believe my kick could fuck up a kneecap, but if I could time it in that kind of situation is a completely different story.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby Pat on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:00 am

OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!

one of my Number One Rules- Never get into a fight with a guy who has to CUT WEIGHT to 265 lbs and has prior arrests for "possesion on a large amount of steriods"- see mugshot of a 2001 arrest. i am completely not suprised when pro-athletes of all kind get popped for any form of performance enhancing drugs.

Image

Vitamin S = bad news!

that being said, i am sure at least 90% of pro-fighters take HGH, some form of steriod or other anabloic drug, insulin, something. these guys are freaks of nature (and science) and we like them that way.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby ashe on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:30 am

that guys neck is almost as nig as his head...
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:33 am

ashe wrote:that guys neck is almost as nig as his head...


It was bigger than his head during the fight.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby Elliot on Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:02 pm

Ian believes fighting a guy like Brock Lesnar wouldn't be a life or death situation, merely "unpleasant."

Ian, "unpleasant" is when someone farts in an elevator. You may be much larger, stronger and have more ring experience than Heath Herring, or you may have Golden Bell Invisible Chi armor, but for the rest of us average guys, taking a beating from Brock Lesnar would be far, far worse than "unpleasant."

Wait until you actually get hit by someone much larger than yourself, then see if you might choose a different adjective.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby kreese on Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:32 pm

Ian is like 150 lbs, but he is obviously confident, or at least not very fearful.

I think IMA came about as an evolution on the fighting arts of the day. Most likely, with little need for traditionalists to fight these days, the MMA guys will be the ones leading the charge towards the modern IMA. I think the principles are already there, maybe not packaged nicely with a theoretical bow, but they are there. MMA is a different beast than it was some 10-15 years ago. Let's not talk about it like it is static, unchanging. Those guys put in more quality time getting hit, thrown, choked, locked. Instead of preaching, somebody please walk in, prove themselves, and then of course Mr. MMA will listen to you.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby Elliot on Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:34 pm

I think IMA came about as an evolution on the fighting arts of the day. Most likely, with little need for traditionalists to fight these days, the MMA guys will be the ones leading the charge towards the modern IMA. I think the principles are already there, maybe not packaged nicely with a theoretical bow, but they are there. MMA is a different beast than it was some 10-15 years ago. Let's not talk about it like it is static, unchanging. Those guys put in more quality time getting hit, thrown, choked, locked. Instead of preaching, somebody please walk in, prove themselves, and then of course Mr. MMA will listen to you.


I nominate Kreese for prime minister of common sense.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby MikeC on Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:10 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:The Brock Lesner fight on UFC has got me thinking. Brock clearly had less skill. However he simply made up for that by being very aggressive and using his strength. I was a little dismayed to realize I weigh more than that beast, but he has WAY more muscle than I do. The situation of the large muscular fighter vs the smaller but skilled fighter is a common enough hypothetical scenario among martial artists and one I have often heard from martial arts teachers telling prospective students that their art will teach them how to deal with someone like that.


I disagree about the skill part. He took Herring down at will and kept him there. Easily.

How DO you deal with someone like Brock? He only had 20 lbs on his adversary saturday but steamrolled him without taking any significant damage. I really think this question is something we need to ask ourselves if we want to be as good as we can be at our art, whatever it is. How do you deal with someone who is much larger, and extremelly aggressive?


weapon


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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby middleway on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:47 am

I just wanna throw out there ....

Mirko Crocop vs Bob Sapp ....

Mirko was WAY out powered in that match and still pooned the monster!

:D
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby Ian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:57 am

Elliot wrote:Ian believes fighting a guy like Brock Lesnar wouldn't be a life or death situation, merely "unpleasant."

Ian, "unpleasant" is when someone farts in an elevator. You may be much larger, stronger and have more ring experience than Heath Herring, or you may have Golden Bell Invisible Chi armor, but for the rest of us average guys, taking a beating from Brock Lesnar would be far, far worse than "unpleasant."

Wait until you actually get hit by someone much larger than yourself, then see if you might choose a different adjective.


Yes, I think you won that argument.
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby Darthwing Teorist on Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:29 am

Actually, under MMA rules, if the weight difference is too large, the match would not be allowed. There would also be a referee to stop the match if it was too dangerous for one of the opponents as well as medical personel on the spot for emergencies.

Now, there is ALWAYS a risk of death when fighting, but MMA rules actually minimize that risk while reducing limitations to duels as within certain safety limits. A fight against a drunk is potentially more dangerous because there are no limits and anything can happen.

Now, I would not fight Brock, unless I have no choice. In fact, I would not fight anyone for real, unless I have no choice. In fact, even the sparring that I do is pretty much controlled. But under MMA rules, if someone like Brock would hit me, the fight would be over pretty quickly. ;)
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby bruce on Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:02 am

Dmitri wrote:try to avoid getting "emotionally involved"


true true true. do not get emotionally involved. often times "smaller" people psyc them selves out about size.
no matter what your size and strength it is "your" problem to deal with.

emotions can cause you to:

a. get into a fight
b. get your ass kicked

control and understand your emotions
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Re: Aggressive and Strong

Postby Fubo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am

IME I've found that "emotional involvement" can be both positive and negative, depending on how you handle your emotions. I agree with Bruce that sometime people psyc themselves out when faced with someone that looks a lot bigger, or stronger. The most successful fights/sparring I've have were when I felt confident in my self and my ability (amountst other factors).

I believe a positive side to emotional involvment is that when "channeled properly" it can fuel you to fight harder and give you more determination.

Something I try to work on regularly is my mentality and determination when sparring.
Last edited by Fubo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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