How the heck did Taiji get a reputation?

[origami_itto]

The measure of one's practice is their own to determine. I'm sure those who train for real-world application think that combat sports are cute.

So long as everyone gets what they want out of it, the art is enriched by their practice. I feel everyone has a perspective worth examining. Combat sports is one. I'd love to hear more about your methods.

[Niall Keane]

The measure of one's practice is their own to determine. I'm sure those who train for real-world application think that combat sports are cute.

All, and I mean all the lads I know from bouncers to special forces who train for "real-world application" vouch for styles that incorporate combat sports over other martial arts.

And absolutely what ever people get out of them, but it's fallacious to pronounce that people who train say krav maga twice a week, focusing on "real-world application" with their wooden M16s while running through a gauntlet of shouting and raving middle-aged, middle class office workers while metal music is played up loud (Ive witnessed this on many an occasion) really have the slightest clue about handling themselves compared to a western boxer, a Muay Thai boxer, a Sanda Fighter or Sub-wrestler. I've seen these types use "sound effects" when someone feigns a kick in the balls and drop like a b-movie actor and the pantomime continues with the next Walter Mitty acting out what they all want to believe they are capable of. It's quite embarrassing to watch really from an adult perspective.

Like... there are only two types of modern day martial artists, those who have and those who haven't fought / trained with decent resistance and minimal rule-sets. And the thing is, all of us who have fought were once people who hadn't. and we know exactly the easily adopted fallacies one can adopt prior to experience. We recognize our prior naivety.

I know those pretending to fight without actually having to experience their nose, ribs or limbs being broken, without ever having to be cautious of being KOed, without ever having to deal with an opponent who wants to knock you out and hurt you like to pretend they're more "hardcore" and like you say pretend that combat sports are "cute"...
Its a nice excuse to pretend it isn't of interest... but this is martial arts, surely its of interest to experience what basic self-defense tools (Kick, Punch, Throw) are actually like to receive and dish out in as close to reality as safely possible? Isn't it better to be hit by the hard thud of a wrapped hand and leather glove than to not know how you will react to a punch at all? Surely an approximation of reality is far better than pure fantasy?

"Of no interest"? how can you know any of your shit will work without trying it out against someone who really doesn't want to let you and actually wants to choke you out, knock you out, or damage you enough to stop you?

Its a rhetorical question, those of us who were once combat sport virgins but have long ago lost that naive mindset already know the answer.

caveat: when I use the term "combat sport" , i mean full contact with very little rules, not flicky-flicky point fighting or pushy-push-push, push hands. And I mane against decent opposition, not within the same style etc. (when I consider the amount of European and World Champs out of 4 or 5 schools belonging to the same organization I cringe. The sad thing is when the competitors ( I cant call them fighters) believe their own hype and step up into a proper competition... lambs to the slaughter!

[origami_itto]

More power to you, man. I'm glad you found a fulfilling practice.

[C.J.W.]

I think it's an error for anyone to point to their practice and say "this and only this is taijiquan". I don't see much point in training for combat sports, personally, anymore. I find focusing on winning a game twists the training to fit the game, whether that's K1, Sanda, MMA, or Push Hands. The games are just part of training, not the point of training. I try not to train my ego.

That doesn't mean that somebody training more for combat sports is doing it wrong, any more than someone who is focusing on the meditative or healing aspects of the art. Taijiquan is too big to fit in our cute little boxes. It's a tool for self-cultivation. What you cultivate is entirely up to you.

I agree with your view that Taiji is encompassing in itself, and that we should respect each and every practitioner for the aspect of the art that they choose to focus on.

But for me, that respect goes out of the window the moment when a practitioner begins to make bogus claims about or teach certain aspects of the art that they have absolutely no clue about.

[C.J.W.]

I think it's an error for anyone to point to their practice and say "this and only this is taijiquan". I don't see much point in training for combat sports, personally, anymore. I find focusing on winning a game twists the training to fit the game, whether that's K1, Sanda, MMA, or Push Hands. The games are just part of training, not the point of training. I try not to train my ego.

That doesn't mean that somebody training more for combat sports is doing it wrong, any more than someone who is focusing on the meditative or healing aspects of the art. Taijiquan is too big to fit in our cute little boxes. It's a tool for self-cultivation. What you cultivate is entirely up to you.

I agree with your view that Taiji is encompassing in itself, and that we should respect each and every practitioner for the aspect of the art that they choose to focus on.

But for me, that respect goes out of the window the moment a practitioner starts making bogus claims or teaching certain aspects of the art that they are absolutely clueless about.

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/SPo1U_gmOWs
Chen win Kwong doing the form for comparison

[Wuming]

Niall,
Thanks for the video of Cheng Tin-hung, I've always been curious what his movement looked like in an environment that included striking. Good stuff. Glad to see y'all are kicking ass and taking names.

[origami_itto]

This is "traditional" tai chi chuan, now the question remains how traditional (i.e. similar to this) are other's approaches? Cheng isn't alone, one of the earliest videos relating to tai chi chuan displays the training methods and contraptions of a Wu Stylist military man. Clearly he was focused on achieving martially relevant results...

There is nothing wrong with practicing Tai Chi Boxercise, health is wealth and all, but those of a purely recreational or scholarly disposition would do well to self-reflect and acknowledge their limitation of understanding in the area, the quantitative and qualitative difference between their training practices and those of fighters and not pronounce others who practice a complete system and engage in combat sports their equal. Its like a yummy-mummy boxercise instructor claiming affinity with a professional boxer. Ludicrous!

I hope you don't take the precision of my wording as a slight. I train with light-to-medium intensity full-contact sparring and grappling. The part that I have personal problems with are the tournaments and competitions and ideas of "winning". They're just games. It's just sports. Titles and trophies don't mean anything to me. Whoever trains harder for a match will win the match, it means nothing. There may be people who feel they need to prove Taijiquan's worth to others, I guess to either validate their practice or attract students, and I guess that's something that the art needs if we want it to stay alive and prospering. Decorate your rice bowl however you like, ya know? Personally, the art validates its worth to me every time I practice.

Friendly competition is just training and should never be taken as anything more. The drive to win just results in pointless injuries and shorting the art to stay competitive. Results and opinions may vary, but that's just how I feel about it.

If winning is the measure, then your art is only valid if you can beat everyone, right?

Sure, the Yangs had to fight to get and maintain their positions, but I don't imagine those challenges looked anything like our modern tournaments. Two men fought until they decided who won. Rounds, referees, corporate sponsors and merchandising vendors had nothing to do with the process in the context that drives these events today.

There is training and there is real life, and I try to do my best to keep them straight. The only opponent I have to beat is that guy inside me that wants me to lay around all day smoking weed, watching tv, and eating bullshit. If anybody else wants to hurt me or my family I'll just shoot them or hit them with a stick. I have too many body parts that need to be rebuilt (some as a result of prior combat sports experience) to be putting them through competition stress on a regular basis.

So yes, I admire your dedication to training, but the focus is definitely not for me at this point in my journey, and your focus in no way invalidates the training of others who chose a different path to express the martial aspect. There was a defensive tone running through your posts that triggered a little bit of snark in me.

Everyone on this Martial Arts forum is always so quick to fight.

[marvin8]

The U.S. Army and Marines adds combat sports in the belief that it helps save lives and as a good way to test against non-compliant opponents, as Niall mentioned.

At 2:23, "But beneath the competitive intensity. lies the life and death purpose of army combatives." At 26:56, “The tournaments may be outlets for competitiveness. But at their heart, they reflect life and death combat skills.”

Published on Oct 2, 2016
Close Combat - The Military Combatives program
Documentary on the new phenomenon of self-defense training in the military since the 1990s. Combative training uses elements of wrestling, MMA and boxing to teach soldiers how to defend themselves in actual combat situations. Also takes a look at the All Army combatives tournament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cp8PTAYAXw

[MaartenSFS]

I'm curious if you experienced combat sports chaps use a lot of Qinna, Shuaifa and anti-Qinna/Shuaifa, as that is what makes up the bulk (but not all) of the Taijiquan curriculum. How much of the actual techniques that you use look different than what kickboxers do?

I'm going to go to spar with a boxing group once per week starting next week and what I do looks totally different and I'm not even including kicks, Shuaifa or Qinna.

I think that normal Sanda plus traditional Gongli is scary enough, but add in the techniques and it's a whole different animal..

[Niall Keane]

I'm curious if you experienced combat sports chaps use a lot of Qinna, Shuaifa and anti-Qinna/Shuaifa, as that is what makes up the bulk (but not all) of the Taijiquan curriculum. How much of the actual techniques that you use look different than what kickboxers do?

I'm going to go to spar with a boxing group once per week starting next week and what I do looks totally different and I'm not even including kicks, Shuaifa or Qinna.

I think that normal Sanda plus traditional Gongli is scary enough, but add in the techniques and it's a whole different animal..

Our Style woud hold that the 4 aspects of chuan are diepu ( strike and knock down or knock down and strike) , Shuai Jiao ( Wrestling techniques) , Chin Na (seize-hold: locks, chokes etc. ) and DIm Mak (Spotting / boring a hole: using pressure points, sometimes to aid a method above)

So, I'm going to give an example of Brush Knee Twist Step, one of the most common styles found in the Tai Chi Long Form.

There are different levels of application, it can of course work without chin na and cai lang methods, but these add an invisible internal "flavor" to the application, especially as when we twist the whole body twists etc. and the adherence along the limbs etc. turn the opponent into locks and destroy his alignment and structure etc..
So here's brush knee twist step, this video was made to assist my students, so I don't dwell too much on the cai lang method. There's a JIAO YI LANG – Delivering Righteousness Wave –in a figure 8- used to open up and stretch the opponent before twisting and circling with foot work, combined to lock up the knee then hip to the core etc..
This is simple enough to experiment with, I usually get my students to try the visually recognizable way first and sure enough it works but the opponent isn't too upset. With the wave and locks its a different matter as that whole "raise something up to smash it down with increased force" is present. (Most sanda / mma fighters etc. will be two dimensional in this respect, I had a lot of fights over more than a decade, only a handful of my opponents had the skill to pull off chin-na etc. within the high-percentage moves, but most fighters are really only starting their journey, I'm sure like myself they look back at old fights and shudder at the level of skill, those who had the skill are all successful coaches now themselves and we still fight.. these days with our students, and we tear each other apart on the leitai but share a few drinks later, (me and the other coaches, the fighters aren't so forgiving) because me and the OGs know one thing for sure, that we are grateful for each other and how we presented to each other the opportunity for each of us to witness and grow in skill):
At around 2.00:



As you can imagine given the scoop is preformed with the forearms "Jow", and the other fist punches or pushes straight ahead "ji" and then the scooping arm spirals / twists with our footwork (liao) with a downward crushing force too "an" . BUT... all of this can be performed with gloves on and whether a ref, round or audience is in existence.

Certainly there are techniques that cannot be performed in sanda / MMA and certainly "dirty tricks" can be added to techniques that can, for example here Cheng TIn-hung demonstrated "Step back and Repulse the Monkey" (around 1.40 he adds a choke)



BUT... most tai chi can be applied on the leitai, albeit it modified slightly, none of the real core "internal mechanics" need change, nor the tactics, really we are talking about being flexible with targeting, and "internal" guys should be all about flexibility, how else to flow? The technique is "modified" but the intent unbroken!!! ;-)

Anyway, I really dont want to go through all 48-72 (depending on how one counts) orthodox sanshou (I dont mean sanda) methods in tai chi chuan to prove how each can be used, suffuce to say there are gripping techniques, BUT, the old expression says "once we have fists we need nothing else", which also carries the meaning of seizing with the forearms and not suffering the delay of releasing a grip and forming a fist in order to punch.. but that's another level... and another story.

Dim Mak can also be applied, one of my favorites was in single seize legs, to use my shoulder to crush a nerve one palm below the hip joint as I seized the leg. a typical counter to a single seize leg is to attempt a crucifix type headlock and to tangle the leg into the executors legs (not sure I'm painting this picture well? anyway, its a counter applied once the seize has been mostly applied, so after "sprawl" opportunity has been by-passed. ) Thing is using "beginning style" normally reserved for the spine against the leg and crushing the point with your shoulder is a totally natural (risk free) way of using their counter against them.

But for "bums on seat", none of these above skills will be apparent, it will just "look like kickboxing", its hidden to all but the opponent, and even him until too late.

What was it Wang Cheng-nan said:
"Nowadays people feel that the internal art lacks dazzle.... for this reason the art is doomed to decline"

[MaartenSFS]

I'll have to reply to this post later, as I can't watch the video without a VPN and am about to head out and train, but I failed to add that I also meant techniques for striking and kicking. Like Cajiao in Chen where you slap your own front kick. In a fight you would simultaneously kick their balls (or wherever) and do a palm strike to their face (or whatever). Works very well. Or Jinjiduli (golden cock stands on one leg) where there is a sort of uppercut with the palm and kicking the balls or knee at the same time. Both of these examples can be used in quick succession to chase your opponent. There are a lot of great hands techniques as well that come from strange angles and are hard to predict and stop, especially when done in combinations. Do you make use of these? The end result is very far from kick-boxing..

[Gus Mueller]

You can take the movements from any physical activity and devise a fighting application for them (e.g. swinging a baseball bat minus the bat can be used in a wrestling context). Whether it is the best application or even conforms to the system you're trying to map it to is another question. In practice people often "change the form" to make it fit what they think is a sensible application.

[Niall Keane]

You can take the movements from any physical activity and devise a fighting application for them (e.g. swinging a baseball bat minus the bat can be used in a wrestling context). Whether it is the best application or even conforms to the system you're trying to map it to is another question. In practice people often "change the form" to make it fit what they think is a sensible application.

Don't understand what you are geting at, as above I've provided two common tai chi chuan orthodox applications and it has to be beyond evident that they can be utilized in sanda - mma etc.?

Am I really going to be forced to go through every form move and demonstrate its orthodox application and start a spreadsheet about its compatability for combat sports?

OR...

Might we just intelligently expand upon the above and extrapulate the obvious?

[Gus Mueller]

Just making a general observation, it's obvious what you do works.