How the heck did Taiji get a reputation?

[Robert Young]

A form does not a taiji system make, nor good research, although that's all they ever do in research studies.

Did you do other training besides the form?

We also practice push hand exercise and the applications from the form too.

[johnwang]

And what was the result of the meeting Wang laoshi? Have you been thrown over and over again like a child?
Have you felt anything what was unique or different from your practice or "use of body"?
I am really interested in your oppinion! Now, after you have met such a high level practioner what is your oppinion about THE IP/IS subject?

Örs

I met 1 of those 3 in Houston. At that time I didn't know who he was until later on we exchanged some messages back and forth.

I have met many Taiji guys in the past. When I played the push and yield game with them, I could still feel that I was dealing with a non-wrestler. The moment that we got into the clinching game (arm wrapping, neck pulling), the moment that I no longer feel the difference that whether I was wrestling with a "internal" guy or just another wrestler. I no longer be able to feel my opponent's IP/IS after that. When 2 bodies connected as 1, the IP/IS no longer has meaning.

[ors]

Thank you Wang laoshi!

If I want to "translate" what you have written I would say that in your game you were the better.... naturally.

Örs

[cerebus]

Mmmmm... okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say that Tai Chi has a reputation as a martial art because of teachers like mine. My instructor isn't afraid to smack me in the face (hard) if I leave myself open. He teachers the "empty-body" skills which are seldom taught these days, which he learned from his teacher, who was a world full-contact fighting champion. I have only a bare smattering of the skills which my teacher can pass on, but I can still kick ass. I have fought boxers and kickboxers and still come out on top. I have fought large, fast, muscular, agressive, brawling fighters at biker clubs and used my art effectively against them. The reason Tai Chi has a rep is because it works. That is all...

[c_xlong]

Cerebus:

Your teacher's teacher would be?

[cerebus]

Cerebus:

Your teacher's teacher would be?

Peter Ralston, the first non-Asian to win the World Full-Contact Fighting Chamopionship in Taiwan. One of his teachers was William C. C. Chen, winner of the Silver Medal at the 1958 All Taiwan Full-Contact Championships and disciple of Cheng Man Ching...

[Andy_S]

Going back a bit:
How many Taiji fighters in the modern age HAVE got a reputation?

Bloody few. Taiji's rep in China was built in the 19th century. In China, the last fighting Yangs died out in the late 19th century. The last fighting Chen was Fa-ke who died in the mid-20th century.

In Taiwan, I don't recall ANY Taiji martial artist famous for fighting, bar William Chen. And let us be honest. He was not world class, he only fought in a very provincial tournament: He came in second place in a Taiwanese tourney in (IIRC) the late 1950s or early 60s. And as has been noted, his style was boxing-influenced.

The only school I know of that produced fighters on the regional, intra-Asian level was Cheng Tin-hung's school in Hong Kong (ie Niall Keane's lineage) which throughout the 1970s and 1980s was the only Taiji school that was successful in the Asian lei-tai fighting championships. Cheng, AFAIK, never did any other MA but Taiji, and the student who has done the most to carry on his fighting skill, Dan Docherty, had very limited exp of Karate before studying under Cheng.

Today, Dans students continue to compete and win in various fora at the regional level (I don't know if they have won international championships, but they have won at European level).

Finally, things are coming full-circle in China. In Henan, Taiji people (Chen and Zhaobao) are doing very well in Chinese tuisau tourneys. These tourneys are essentially jacketless wrestling, so demand a skillset and toughness that most Taiji people lack.

The interesting thing is that many people in European Taiji have criticized Docherty's Taiji as "external MA" (I also have reason to believe that there was some movement in the USA in the 1990s that was actively opposed to Dan and his organization). Meanwhile, many criticize Chen and Zhaobao Taiji as "low-level grappling."

In other words, we have reached a very, very low point:
Many (most?) Taiji people are simply unable to recognize actual fighting skill, as their only experience is teacher demos of students being bounced away with 'fajing" and other such ridiculous and combatively useless skills.

But there is hope. In both Eastern and Western Europe, Cheng's/Dan's lineage is going strong, and elsewhere, the younger Chens are now introducing their more combative version of Taiji to interested persons.

[yusuf]

you know, througout all this thread I keep thinking that there cannot be false gold without the knowledge that real gold exists....

[Leishen]

My great Grandmaster Wang Peisheng had a without doubth reputation for his fighting skills in the Taiji and IMA community and one reason that he was so pespected was his Wu style fighting skills. Giving his background and the ...strange things that happened to him during the cultural revolution, he used these skills in actual fighting very well I would say.
Something that is very evident in the curriculum of my lineage passed to us through my teacher and uncles etc.

People like Feng Zhiqiang too had a reputation and don't forget that the unknown people in the lineages (not only the big Family names) many times wrote Taiji's history, most of these times away from the publicity.

On the other hand, I don't know if we had in the 20th century so many big names from the Xingyi/Bagua world that they Really did have a great reputation of fights etc. I am sure they had, however too many of these happenings are unknown to us mortals the same like Taijiquan.

For me whatever goes for Taiji, the same goes for the other internals.

[cerebus]

The thing with the effectiveness of boxing & kickboxing versus Tai Chi is not the method or art itself. It's the method of training. Most Tai Chi people do not put the gloves on and spar hard contact. One doesn't need to import boxing or kickboxing techniques into Tai Chi to make it effective, but they DO need to import at least that particular training method (hard contact sparring with gloves) so that students can actually get a realistic idea of such things as timing, distancing and contact in a combative situation.

[johnwang]

One doesn't need to import boxing or kickboxing techniques into Tai Chi to make it effective, but they DO need to import at least that particular training method (hard contact sparring with gloves) so that students can actually get a realistic idea of such things as timing, distancing and contact in a combative situation.

This is absolute true. When I stand in front of my heavy bag, my longfist kicks and punches just look so much like boxing punches and MT kicks.

[pennsooner]

Most of my background is in Boxing/Kickboxing, although at a low level "club boxing", I have sparred against a few decent boxers, including one ex-pro who had sparred with Mohammad Ali, he helped Ali prepare for the second Leon Spinks fight by playing Spinks and was quite good from what I could tell (his skill was so far beyond mine it was hard to gauge).

I also got to study under, for a few months an indoor disciple of Ma Hongs named Hongchang Zheng. I remember that he mentioned he got his nose broken during sparring that was part of his Tai Chi training. I tend to hate Tai Chi because it has on the whole become so.........pussyfied but this gentleman trained it not unlike hard Kung Fu, lots of power training. We never went hard but he would have killed me if we had. I'd far rather fight the Boxer I described earlier (Ni Menza was his name) than Master Zheng. However, he is the only Tai Chi player who I've met who I thought could really use his Tai Chi in a fight.

[MaartenSFS]

I haven't commented on these old threads until now... I can't believe that I read through this whole thing...

The simple explanation is that Taiji, especially the modified Yang style, is a great exercise for your health. Chinese are great at business (too good, oftentimes). You'd better believe that they would cash in on teaching it for health. As to why there aren't as many people that can use it to fight, it is the steep learning curve. Why did people train other martial arts before Taiji? Because they lacked the patience, the maturity, and perhaps a qualified teacher. I don't think that Taiji is superior to the other internal arts, but my training in Chen style here in China has been killer. I don't see many people that are willing to subject themselves to that, without a clear, quick progression to arse-kicking. Even without learning the applications, a kick-boxer or any other martial artist would greatly benefit from the Jibengong in Taiji.

I also find it ridiculous that Chen Fake was not brought up earlier. He was called Fist God by the Japanese. When he got to Beijing people were like "ZOMG! Not Taiji!". His son was apparently a great fighter as well, though he unfortunately died young. The Taiji fighters in cities like Shijiazhuang and Baoding are constantly fighting with the Shuaijiao guys, a lot participate in Sanda as well. They are no joke. Just because they don't win world championships in international (to which they haven't got access) full contact, no holds barred fights to the death, does not mean that there aren't some badarse warriors out there.

Mahong was already in his forties when he began to learn from Chen Zhaokui, but he learned the whole system and has some students that are great fighters, which means he knew how to teach fighting, even if he himself wasn't a warrior. Anyone can learn Taiji from a competent master and participate in world championships. It just means sparring more and adapting to rulesets. Not everyone is cut out to be a martial genius and become an undefeated God of the arena, regardless of what style they practise.

Lastly, it seems to be a past time amongst young Chinese to get into street fights. My Sanda coach defeated every single person he fought on the streets of his city when he was young and eventually became the number three Sanda champion in China. He began training a traditional style when he was six or something and later learned Sanda. He has no respect for traditional arts because he kicked their arses. I've sparred with him, though, and his reputation is well-deserved in the city. But he is now in his mid forties and has stopped training. Just because he beat all of the other arts doesn't make them bad arts. The fighters that represented them failed to live up to the challenge. There are a lot of people like this in China that grew up fighting. Just because they don't participate in public tournaments means nothing. They usually don't even have the means or interest to do so.

I have been living in this city for over five years and find new styles and masters all the time. They don't advertise. Some aren't local. Some were in the military and fucking killed people. But they didn't win the world championships so it doesn't count. O, and it's not [insert style here]. End of rant.