Faith in what you do

[Frank Bellemare]

Spring, what was the point of what you wrote in your first post? Saying that arts should be kept pure and unadulterated is what led traditional japanese ju-jutsu to be defeated by Kodokan judo in the late 1800s. Things change, things evolve.

Unfortunately, CMA sort of stopped evolving a hundred years ago and since then a lot of knowledge and ability has been lost. That is why lineage, stylistic purity and the quest for the oldest or "original" forms and methods have become such (ridiculously) important subjects of debate. But honestly, if your art is missing something -- say groundfighting -- go learn it from someone who really knows how to do it, don't bother trying to invent it from bagua principles or something.

And if your bagua is a spiritual path of self-discovery, well that's something else altogether.

[spring]

Frank, with all respect, Bagua is not jujitsu.

CMA has continued to evolve , there are students of great teachers on this board who will attest how their teachers have adapted their boxing to modern times without losing the essence - and I am certain they must have all tasted defeat more than once on the bitter path to mastery.

Su Dong Chen and Sam Chin to name a couple who must be close to the skill of some of the historical masters.

The traditional arts are alive and well, have faith in them.

[spring]

Important point also Frank - CMA of north and south China almost all have ground fighting skills, traditionally and now. My teacher learned Xingyiquan from Hung I Xiang and his son Tiger, and showed me a few times (I didnt learn Xingyi) great use of dragon, swallow, monkey and so on with a whole range of use on the ground, every type of pin, trap, sweep, choke etc you can imagine. Bagua is no different.

[spring]

Sure Ian, where are you?

[Fubo]

Important point also Frank - CMA of north and south China almost all have ground fighting skills, traditionally and now. My teacher learned Xingyiquan from Hung I Xiang and his son Tiger, and showed me a few times (I didnt learn Xingyi) great use of dragon, swallow, monkey and so on with a whole range of use on the ground, every type of pin, trap, sweep, choke etc you can imagine. Bagua is no different.

You do realise that the great Hung I Xiang practised Judo in his youth, right? Could that be why he was able to show you ground grappling techniques?

[qiphlow]

i think spring is saying that we often look to other martial art styles in hopes that we will gain skills that we may think we lack, and that we could perhaps delve deeper into the arts which we already practice and find that which we seek.
am i right, spring?

[Elliot]

Spring proclaims: " If you really think Xingyi or Bagua dont have principles and practices for the ground, or for projectiles weapons, or for escaping the corner, you simply havent gone deep enough into your art."

Really? Fortune cookie philosophy aside, the truth is you can practice Xingyi or Bagua (or any other stand up style) for a lifetime and you will still get your ass handed to you by an average BJJ white belt if the fight goes to the ground.

Telling people some style or another has "everything you need" as some kind of vague self-improvement system is one thing, leading people to believe they will magically develop ground fighting skills and accuracy at using firearms by walking in circles or doing forms is unethical.

I know a little bit about boxing. Who were some of the "world class boxers" you trained with?

[CaliG]

I agree with the basic premise, but I also think that the more you get into one style you start to realize that other styles really aren't that different.

I think this is also why Tim Cartmell and Bruce Lee cross-trained after having a foundation in CMAs, because they realized that the main difference was that other styles used different training methods and they saw value in them.

To each his own...

Good times,

G

[edededed]

Just train what you like, and call it what it is. If you train Brazilian bagua-jujutsu... then call it that.

I personally don't want to roll with sweaty men, but that's just me. (If the Young Nubile Women School of Brazilian Jujutsu for some reason let me into their ranks, then there might be more incentive to join (win or lose, you always win!).)

[DeusTrismegistus]

Spring proclaims: " If you really think Xingyi or Bagua dont have principles and practices for the ground, or for projectiles weapons, or for escaping the corner, you simply havent gone deep enough into your art."

Really? Fortune cookie philosophy aside, the truth is you can practice Xingyi or Bagua (or any other stand up style) for a lifetime and you will still get your ass handed to you by an average BJJ white belt if the fight goes to the ground.

Telling people some style or another has "everything you need" as some kind of vague self-improvement system is one thing, leading people to believe they will magically develop ground fighting skills and accuracy at using firearms by walking in circles or doing forms is unethical.

I know a little bit about boxing. Who were some of the "world class boxers" you trained with?

Way to try to twist someone's words.

He said that Xingyi and Bagua (and I will include Taiji) have all the PRINCIPLES for the ground, for archery, or whatever. I completely agree. He said absolutely nothing about being able to do that without actually practicing on the ground or practicing archery, etc. So what I want to know is why you think what he said is misleading people into thinking they can get magical skill by walking in circles when he said nothing of the sort?

[Elliot]

Deus said:

He said that Xingyi and Bagua (and I will include Taiji) have all the PRINCIPLES for the ground, for archery, or whatever. I completely agree. He said absolutely nothing about being able to do that without actually practicing on the ground or practicing archery, etc. So what I want to know is why you think what he said is misleading people into thinking they can get magical skill by walking in circles when he said nothing of the sort?

Way to twist my words.

Sprint said (and I quote) "If you really think Xingyi or Bagua dont have principles and PRACTICES for the ground, or for projectiles weapons, or for escaping the corner, you simply havent gone deep enough into your art."

Read son, read.

[Sprint]

Deus said:

He said that Xingyi and Bagua (and I will include Taiji) have all the PRINCIPLES for the ground, for archery, or whatever. I completely agree. He said absolutely nothing about being able to do that without actually practicing on the ground or practicing archery, etc. So what I want to know is why you think what he said is misleading people into thinking they can get magical skill by walking in circles when he said nothing of the sort?

Way to twist my words.

Sprint said (and I quote) "If you really think Xingyi or Bagua dont have principles and PRACTICES for the ground, or for projectiles weapons, or for escaping the corner, you simply havent gone deep enough into your art."

Read son, read.

I think you are confusing me with Spring - read son read.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Deus said:

He said that Xingyi and Bagua (and I will include Taiji) have all the PRINCIPLES for the ground, for archery, or whatever. I completely agree. He said absolutely nothing about being able to do that without actually practicing on the ground or practicing archery, etc. So what I want to know is why you think what he said is misleading people into thinking they can get magical skill by walking in circles when he said nothing of the sort?

Way to twist my words.

Sprint said (and I quote) "If you really think Xingyi or Bagua dont have principles and PRACTICES for the ground, or for projectiles weapons, or for escaping the corner, you simply havent gone deep enough into your art."

Read son, read.

The way I understood the practices part was two ways, firstly that there are many different practices in these arts and not just forms, and secondly that the practices impart the principles that you can then explore in whatever context you want. To assume he meant that you can learn to choke a bitch out from walking in circles is asinine.

[spring]

Qiphlow - correct!

Fubo - please note I did not say it was grappling, what my teacher showed me was nothing like Judo, it was purely coming out of the Twelve Animals skills which he said Hung and Tiger showed him explicit applications for most eventuality (give or take Godzilla treading on you).

[Fubo]

Important point also Frank - CMA of north and south China almost all have ground fighting skills, traditionally and now. My teacher learned Xingyiquan from Hung I Xiang and his son Tiger, and showed me a few times (I didnt learn Xingyi) great use of dragon, swallow, monkey and so on with a whole range of use on the ground, every type of pin, trap, sweep, choke etc you can imagine. Bagua is no different.

Here is the same quote from you above, again. First you claim that all CMA have ground fighting - then you talk about them having "EVERY TYPE" of pin, trap, SWEEP (if you sweep someone while ground fighting, how do you not grapple within the grappling range?), choke"... so if they include and you were shown "EVERY TYPE" of ground fighting technique imaginable, as you claim, then you ARE saying that grappling is included (as grappling is a huge part of what makes ground fighting).

Or are you NOW saying that CMA has ground fighting, just not the grappling part?