Skin, fascia, and bone conditioning

[neijia_boxer]

So I have been training with a former Lei Tai fighter for past several months and at the end of training we do hit conditioning he was taught.

i figuring out that since his former Sifu does Hung Gar I think these are from hung Gar:

1. Skin/fascia conditioning:

trainer either uses a palm or focus mitt and hard slaps various areas of body. legs-body-arms.

2. Bone/muscle conditioning:

hard 'pattern' kicking various parts of body: inside lower leg, outside lower leg, inside thigh, outside thigh, body, head/shoulder (covering)

3. other- body conditioning:
punching body hard as possible- jab to belly, cross-to belly, body hook left, body hook right.

it is very different that the more internal and shaolin type of stuff i have worked on and described in previous thread:
http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13211

[D_Glenn]

拍打功 Paidagong (patting-hitting work) is a practice in Baguazhang that is considered more of a Buddhist practice as it's strengthening the body from the outside-in.

Zhan Zhuang (standing practice) is more of the Daoist influenced practice as it's strengthening the body from the inside-out.

The paidagong is somewhat complex as there is a basic patting, then patting the meridians in a specific manner and patting different sections of the body. The important thing to note though is that paidagong is a precursor to 'iron-body' training and one would traditionally do 1 to 3 years of daily practice, progressing from light patting to a hard hitting before moving onto any hitting of the body with an implement other than the hands. The reason being that the nerves in the skin need to be slowly accustomed to the hitting over a long period of time as they can be damaged easily and this damage can permanently disrupt one's ability to have and further develop their 'ting jin' (listening skills). So the IMAs only use the 'hitting practices' if they're done correctly, with the proper progression, and over a good length of time. Generally though it's said the IMAs don't take the chance on the practice because strategically we rely so much on our 'ting jin' listening, where some external styles just strike and run down an opponent so their strategy doesn't require as much 'listening' so it doesn't matter if they do hard 'hitting' conditioning.

We don't really use the paidagong and zero use of 'iron-body' as just the daily standing practice is more practical use of time and efficient enough on it's own to strengthen the body but without causing damage to the nerves/ting jin.

We do also consider Paidagong as more of a supplementary 'medical' or 'health' practice for treating specific conditions in yourself and others.

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[neijia_boxer]

Very cool and thanks D_Glenn

Yes, my Paidagong instructor is careful in the fact that you don't want to kill the nerves at all. let them rebuild and heal properly. he is definitely aggressive in the external styles "just strike and run down an opponent."

is there a jow for Paidagong?

the jow i had for the punching of the stomach soreness....margaritas!

[D_Glenn]

"is there a jow for Paidagong?"

Not that I'm aware of. Completely impractical really and if you needed it afterward then that's probably a sign that you were hitting to hard.

My experience with the paidagong is that it's invigorating when done right and it has a feeling of drawing everything out, or bringing energy out to the surface, a jiu/jow seems counter-intuitive.

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[C.J.W.]

I suppose different systems approach paidagong differently; in some "hardcore" sothern styles, conditioning must be done in conjunction with the use of specific herbal medicine -- ingested and/or applied topically -- in order to prevent internal and external injuries. Usually, only indoor disciples have access to the herbal formulas.

[D_Glenn]

Note that I have my Grandteacher's book which is only the 1st part of 'iron body' and is just the 'paidagong' patting/hitting with the hands in which there is no mention of the use of any Jow. Part 2 was supposed to have discussed the second stage and moving onto the use of implements such as the wire brush. It's possible that it would have discussed the use of Jows etc. in conjunction with that.

We do use jiu for injuries and there are various formulas that my Grandteacher used, and which he published a couple of. But we kind of believe that a tolerance is built up so quickly, to any substance, internal or external, so we reserve the use of Jiu for only when it's really needed.


The book is out of print now but the whole practice is on DVD along with some other practices if anyone is interested: The Healing Without Medicine Collection of Yin Style Bagua $29

.

[allen2saint]

Why do I love having been introduced to this forum? Posts like this.

[NoSword]

"is there a jow for Paidagong?"

Not that I'm aware of. Completely impractical really and if you needed it afterward then that's probably a sign that you were hitting to hard.

My experience with the paidagong is that it's invigorating when done right and it has a feeling of drawing everything out, or bringing energy out to the surface, a jiu/jow seems counter-intuitive.

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+1 IME

When I first started Tongbei I got some really gnarly lesions and busted blood vessels on my legs especially, but now I feel comfortable whacking most anything without fear of damage. (Not necessarily hard -- just hard ENOUGH.) It feels good and I like it.

AK

[C.J.W.]

Any type of hard conditioning exercises that invovle the use of hard objects should be proceeded with caution. The well-known Taiwanese Feeding Crane grandmaster Liu Gu, grandfather of Liu Chang-I, lost most of his eye sight from training iron palm improperly. Apparently he trained too hard and damaged certain meridians in his hands and fingers which effectied the eyes. (There's a black and white picture of Liu taken during a demo that shows the unassuming little old man with dispropotionally huge palms that are almost as big as his head.)

[D_Glenn]

Always love your stories. That's one I have to remember for sure as I know some guys who train with Liu Chang-I.

Gotta get me a link to the picture though.

[C.J.W.]

Well, a CMAist's gotta be good at something, right? If my skills don't impress, at least I still got my stories.

I believe the picture is in an old book on Feeding Crane boxing written by Liu Gu with co-author Su Yu-Chang. Need to look for it.

[Eric_H]

Interesting stuff, we have training in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun that also works on the Skin, Muscle, Tendon and Bone.

Had always thought it was a Siu Lam thing, maybe it's not.

[WongYing]

Totally agree with the point about being carefull on hand conditioning especially the finger tips, eyesight is the first area of damage that can occur with other issues to follow

[jonathan.bluestein]

Personally my type of hit conditioning training is by Tree Kao exercises, of which I have many. The emphasis though is not on the hit-conditioning itself, but on learning proper use of body mechanics and issuing power. The rest of the benefits from this practice are thought of as secondary. Accordingly, you are not trying to take the tree down, and proper trees must be chosen - neither too thick, not too thin. This is also important for preventing concussions.

I was wondering if someone knew what are some of the initial symptoms of things like eyesight damage, which result from bad practice. Also interested in knowing if these are reversible. Good to know that sort of stuff.

[C.J.W.]

Always love your stories. That's one I have to remember for sure as I know some guys who train with Liu Chang-I.

I remember that Liu was first brought over to the States for seminars by an Okinawan Karate guy named Kimo Wall. Are your friends Karate guys who cross-train Feeding Crane?

I also know a Taiwanese White Crane guy who used to study under Liu in Taiwan, and he was somewhat pissed after viewing Liu's seminar footage in the States because, according to him, Liu showed too many fighting applications to the American students -- including some that are considered "privileged information." When he asked Liu why he'd done so, Liu replied, "did you see the size of those American guys who wanted to test me? I had to show them what I've really got!"