Shen Fa?

[edededed]

edededed = "Ed" was already taken as a user name... (back on the old boards, that is.)

"Taijiquan" is probably one of the hardest to explain by itself - you could start by trying to read the wikipedia article for "taiji" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji)...

[kreese]

ed, you're too smart to play this game.

[kreese]

Elliot - your argument, or lack of one, implies that the Chinese terms are somehow not good enough. Why not? Just because you can't wrap your mind around them? LOL. But where's your cleverness when it comes to carrying that argument over to the scores of other things that lack translation into English? You don't have one, because you're the typical type of bigot that is too much of a pussy to admit it. You try to hide it behind pseudo-intellectualism, like being at the top of your class at Ju-Co, but you got your skirt lifted and now you have nothing left to say or do but try to get attention from the other nice folks. You just like to have a little bit of fun you say, but seriously: since you aren't sincere, just what are you doing here at all?

[Bao]

"Taijiquan" is probably one of the hardest to explain by itself - you could start by trying to read the wikipedia article for "taiji" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji)...

Eh, don't you know that wikipedia is not a particularly reliable resource?

Anyway the "article" contains many faults. The explanation of the term is wrong and the term "taiji" is not in the Yijing or any of the old taoist texts. The term was invented by Zhou Dunyi in the beginning of the 1100th century. He used this term to explain concepts or relationships for his comments on the Yijing. But there is no taiji in the original Yijing text. The term is not even a taoist term, but comes from a mix of taoist cosmology and a view on the world which was basically confucian. Therefore, Zhou Yi is considered a fore-runner (together with to other numerologists or cosmologists from the same time) to the Song-xue or Neo-confucinism which resurrected Confucianism as the official state philosophy.

Taiji is not an equal to the Dao or Taiyi as stated. It should more be compared with the "De" - which is the generative force, or power of the dao.

[bailewen]

Elliot just has a small vocabulary is all.

Tai Chi has been an English word for years now:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tai%20chi

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
tai chi or Tai Chi Audio Help (tī' chē', jē') Pronunciation Key
n. A Chinese system of physical exercises designed especially for self-defense and meditation.

What Elliot is really asking is the etymology of the term and complaing about the fact that it was once a Chinese term so yes, kind of just a little racist. May as well complain about Italian terms in music or german terms in philosophy. Lets get rid of all those annoying saxon roots as well. Pure English for me....

Oh and btw:

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Bagua_(concept)

Pretty good summary right there. If you can find an English equivalent, let me know.

[Elliot]

Thanks for the link eded.

Kreese,
Calling me a bigot and a pussy is one thing, but calling me a pseudo intellectual is going too far. Please go back to trying to confound and hack into my mind and heart and take advantages of my biases. It's much less painful that way.

Omar,
Once again, I've never complained about anyone using Chinese names for Chinese styles. I simply asked why some names could be translated into English while others could not. Does everyone here hate English speakers? BTW, you have a cool Chinese name.

[kreese]

Now you're just repeating what you said when you couldn't come up with anything real. Case closed. At least the girls are super hot at Ju-Co, a.k.a. "high school with ashtrays". Please, I'd rather you chased after that than wasted your spoon-like wit on me.

[bailewen]

Omar,
Once again, I've never complained about anyone using Chinese names for Chinese styles. I simply asked why some names could be translated into English while others could not. Does everyone here hate English speakers?

Fair enough.

I'll take your comment at face value then. Why some and not others? You have to rephrase your question. It's not a matter of "could" be translated so much as "should". And to that I have pretty much the same answer as before only in a nicer "tone" of voice. Same as music. Why do we say "addagio" or "forte" instead or "slow" or "strong"? Why do ballet dancers "plie" instead of "bend"? Does it matter?

Basically, and this is where it's going to be hard to not be at least a little bit condescending in my answer, we use those terms because the primary masters of the relevant arts spoke those languages and it became a habit. The condescending part is when you think about why and when a ballet teacher or a music teacher knows it is more appropriate to use the English terms and avoid the fancy foreign words. The answer is: When they are teaching children or other people with poor language skills.

Walk into a Judo dojo and you will hear mostly japanese terms for the throws...even though there are perfectly accurate English translations for most of them. Take a fencing class and you will hear french terms even though, again, there are perfectly accurate English translations for most of those terms. So the simple answer to "why" is just "because" and anyone who finds it troublesome is just being spoiled and ethnocentric.

[klonk]

Sports and other activities that have gone international (judo, fencing, taiji, classical music and dance, etc.) may retain the original vocabulary for convenience. In any fencing salle from here to China, all the people you meet know what quarte and sixte are, even if they are Dutch. If a conductor has an orchestra of varied nationalities, everyone knows what he means if he yells "fortissimo!" In much the same way, science retains Latin for naming bugs and so on, because there is an exact reference to just what bug you mean regardless of what language you speak.

So retaining the foreign term may sometimes result in less confusion, not more, more clarity, not less.

[Wuyizidi]

...
Once again, I've never complained about anyone using Chinese names for Chinese styles. I simply asked why some names could be translated into English while others could not. Does everyone here hate English speakers?...

Anyone familiar with more than one language or culture knows the very common problems posed in translation. In one culture, a particular concept may be more developed than in another culture, that concept may not even exist in the second culture. In such instances, what choice do we have but to use the original word?

For example, Taiji. Taiji the philosophical concept means:

1. A single entity containing both yin and yang
2. that yin and yang are in constant flux,
3. but the tendency is toward balance
4. within yin there is a little bit yang
5. within yang there is a little bit yin
6. the fluctuation of yin and yang occurs in a specific manner called zhuan huan - the pace of change is even, smooth, even when the change is happening very fast, as opposed to cha yi - the change takes place instantly, in a binary manner, like when you press the light switch, it's jumps directly between on and off)

Now, can you think of an existing word in English that describes such an entity?

Sometimes the concept exists in the second language, but requiring many words. Language's function is to facilitate communication. That's why we have jargons. Within a profession, we need to communicate the most often used concepts quickly and easily, preferably with one word. In such instances, using a single word with foreign origin is preferable.

In the case where there does seem to be an exact word in the second culture, but in the first culture the concept is developed further, or just have additional meanings, when we use the word directly, we run the risk of students in the second culture prevented from having complete understanding. Hence common cry: traduttore, traditore (translator, betrayer). A classic example is the five elements. To illustrate this, let play a game:

Why don't you write down what you think are the key characteristics of fire (ex. hot) and water (ex. soft) in American culture (I'm presuming you are American) that would immediately come to the mind of someone who grew up in U.S., and we'll write down the Chinese connotations, and specifically what they have to do with Chinese martial art. Then we can compare and determine if those differences are important for what we're doing.

Wuyizidi

[Elliot]

Basically, and this is where it's going to be hard to not be at least a little bit condescending in my answer, we use those terms because the primary masters of the relevant arts spoke those languages and it became a habit. The condescending part is when you think about why and when a ballet teacher or a music teacher knows it is more appropriate to use the English terms and avoid the fancy foreign words. The answer is: When they are teaching children or other people with poor language skills.

I don't think that's condescending Omar, it makes perfect sense, I never suggested a translation for terms like "Taiji," I was just asking if there was one. I'm spoiled like that.

Wuyizidi,

I see your point about the difficulty in translating Taiji into English. And I'd like to play your game, but I'm not exactly sure what it is.

Kreese,
You sound high as a kite my friend.

[kreese]

Elliot - what martial arts have you studied?

[edededed]

"Taijiquan" is probably one of the hardest to explain by itself - you could start by trying to read the wikipedia article for "taiji" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji)...

Eh, don't you know that wikipedia is not a particularly reliable resource?

Anyway the "article" contains many faults. The explanation of the term is wrong and the term "taiji" is not in the Yijing or any of the old taoist texts. The term was invented by Zhou Dunyi in the beginning of the 1100th century. He used this term to explain concepts or relationships for his comments on the Yijing. But there is no taiji in the original Yijing text. The term is not even a taoist term, but comes from a mix of taoist cosmology and a view on the world which was basically confucian. Therefore, Zhou Yi is considered a fore-runner (together with to other numerologists or cosmologists from the same time) to the Song-xue or Neo-confucinism which resurrected Confucianism as the official state philosophy.

Taiji is not an equal to the Dao or Taiyi as stated. It should more be compared with the "De" - which is the generative force, or power of the dao.

Well, I did say "start"... (You can always edit the article yourself, too.)

[river rider]

In at least some instances, when I use english terms like ward-off, roll-back, press, and push, I have a preconceived notion of what I'm trying to do and my practice tends to try to fit itself into these categories. When I use the chinese words, peng, lu, ji and an, I tend instead to craft a definition based upon what I'm doing or trying to do. With the first viewpoint I've already constructed boundries and understandings that might be limiting or even wrong. With the second viewpoint I'm trying to investigate and understand. Of course, part of this process will involve investigating the chinese terms... which in the end usually have some differences and connotations from the english translation.

Some words, like peng and lu, seem to be obscure even in chinese. At this level they form a specialist vocabulary, relating more directly to the art (taijiquan in this instance) than to everyday language. I think this is a big reason why so many disciplines retain foreign words, like the examples earlier given in this thread for arts like music, dancing, judo... they become a specialist jargon containing meanings absent from the same term or a definition in ordinary language. This precision can be very useful to practitioners, after they reach a certain level.

A fun book to read about chinese terms in taiji is Jane Schorre's How To Grasp The Bird's Tail If You Don't Speak Chinese, from North Atlantic Books.

[Bao]

For example, Taiji. Taiji the philosophical concept means:

1. A single entity containing both yin and yang
2. that yin and yang are in constant flux,
3. but the tendency is toward balance
4. within yin there is a little bit yang
5. within yang there is a little bit yin
6. the fluctuation of yin and yang occurs in a specific manner called zhuan huan - the pace of change is even, smooth, even when the change is happening very fast, as opposed to cha yi - the change takes place instantly, in a binary manner, like when you press the light switch, it's jumps directly between on and off)

Well, that sums up pretty much of the classical taoist interpretation of yin/yang. But there are many other philosophies and philosophies through out Chinese history that interpretes yin/yang quite diffrently. There are Neo-confucianists who says that the tendency is towards non-balance and chaos, but "li" is the force that balances the opposites. Some would say that yin and yang are fluctuations of qi and some people regard yin and yang as complete separate from each other, as two forces trying to overcome each other. I just say this because the "harmony" thinking of yin-yang is not as wide spread in old Chinese thought as most people believe.

Actually, in the old classical daoism, yin and yang was not very important at all. The Tao, De, Heaven, Earth, Water, Wu and You was all more important terms than yin/yang. And often, Yin/yang was even regarded as a manifestation of the Wanwu or "the 10 thousand things" (the physical manifestations) as one can make a conclusion from a text as the old taoist cannon "Taiyi sheng shui" ("The Taiyi gives birth to Water".)

ededed:

(You can always edit the article yourself, too.)

I don't think my English is good enough. It would take a long time and become a very long and boring article. But I have thought about it.