Insightful Interview

[Mike Strong]

My Yi Quan teacher told me:

"Just do our practice, AND if you want to use it for fighting then - just fighting with others, that is all".

And that is what I did.

I practiced ZZ, the Tibetan Bowing Board, Sitting, and laying like a corpse, and then ...

... I got with Matthew Cohen, Don Miller, Uncle Bill, Gene Labelle, and others.

Along side of my Yi Quan training I would go down to Venice beach with a truck tire, and throw it, and wing it around, - chasing around after it like a crab.

I worked with John Painter,and sought out BKF.

I grew up wrestling in Iowa; so I didn't feel like I needed to get with The Machados, but I've always been "down" for putting on the gloves and boxing.

If you want to use your IMA for fighting , - you have to fight!

That is all.

What's the big deal ?

[Ian]

The onus of responsibility is on the practitioner to get what he needs out of the practice and to find his or her deficiencies and try and balance them out.

...

If you want to get the fighting part you take what you have, go crosstrain and find people who can help you make it work.

IMO if you have to get the "fighting part" in your own time, something is seriously wrong.

[shawnsegler]

My opinion is that we should go back to the old school way. If you want to market your shit for health only, then good on ya.

If you want to advertise yourself as a fighting school when you put up your shingle you do it with a 24 hour "take all comers" challenge.

Best,

S

[JessOBrien]

None of my teachers have ever sparred with me, nor did any of them have free - sparring between students during class.

-Jess O

[DeusTrismegistus]

None of my teachers have ever sparred with me, nor did any of them have free - sparring between students during class.

-Jess O

That really surprises me. If I only did forms I would get so bored. The sparring is where the fun and real learning is at. I am not sure how someone can claim to teach a fighting art but not spar in training.

[JAB]

Hence the problem with much of the CMA we see today.

[GrahamB]

None of my teachers have ever sparred with me, nor did any of them have free - sparring between students during class.

-Jess O

Jess, I find that surprising (and a little depressing if I'm honest) given how many teacher you've had/met (got your book b.t.w. )

Do you mean any type of sparring? i.e. no light sparring as well? I'm not counting 2-man arranged patterns.

G

[GrahamB]

Zhao:
Let's start from xingyiquan and baguazhang...
...first xingyiquan. In 1920s and 1930s there were many representatives of xingyiquan among winners of leitai tournaments. But today „power" of xingyiquan decreased. The reason is that apart from problems common for all chinese martial arts, this one which stresses harmony-unity has many aspects where there is lack of such harmony.

For example there is lack of harmony between technique and force. In xingyiquan hitting technique is powered by pushing force. Fists or palms mainly push opponent, in small part causing damage. But it also doesn't allow pushing opponent far away in pushing hands. Actually, it seems as if xingyiquan people have not decided whether their technique is for san shou or for tui shou.

There's probably some translations issues going on here, but I'm 100% behind him on this, as I understand what he's saying. I hate it when I see videos of XingYi people "pushing" people away instead of striking them. XY has distinctive methods of striking and pushing is a completely different thing ( a push starts from contact and accelerates away, hence no pain). I think the huge popularity of Tai Chi is to blame. Having said that the push in Tai Chi isn't meant to be used all the time in confrontations, it just seems that it's become the thing Tai Chi is known for through its popularity as a teaching method. In reality there is no such thing as a push in XY. It's just not one of the arts methods, or at least I haven't come across one yet, and I've been looking pretty damn hard.

Just my person opinion of course, the way you want to practice is up to you. I'm just thinking out loud here, and should probably keep my opinions to myself. I just read the interview and it stuck a cord

[kreese]

What Ian said. That's what you do when you don't have a teacher or your teacher isn't teaching you how to fight. Even relative beginners and mediocre students under good teachers are pretty competent. Those who take responsibility rise to the top.

The onus of responsibility is on the practitioner to get what he needs out of the practice and to find his or her deficiencies and try and balance them out.

...

If you want to get the fighting part you take what you have, go crosstrain and find people who can help you make it work.

IMO if you have to get the "fighting part" in your own time, something is seriously wrong.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Zhao:
Let's start from xingyiquan and baguazhang...
...first xingyiquan. In 1920s and 1930s there were many representatives of xingyiquan among winners of leitai tournaments. But today „power" of xingyiquan decreased. The reason is that apart from problems common for all chinese martial arts, this one which stresses harmony-unity has many aspects where there is lack of such harmony.

For example there is lack of harmony between technique and force. In xingyiquan hitting technique is powered by pushing force. Fists or palms mainly push opponent, in small part causing damage. But it also doesn't allow pushing opponent far away in pushing hands. Actually, it seems as if xingyiquan people have not decided whether their technique is for san shou or for tui shou.

There's probably some translations issues going on here, but I'm 100% behind him on this, as I understand what he's saying. I hate it when I see videos of XingYi people "pushing" people away instead of striking them. XY has distinctive methods of striking and pushing is a completely different thing ( a push starts from contact and accelerates away, hence no pain). I think the huge popularity of Tai Chi is to blame. Having said that the push in Tai Chi isn't meant to be used all the time in confrontations, it just seems that it's become the thing Tai Chi is known for through its popularity as a teaching method. In reality there is no such thing as a push in XY. It's just not one of the arts methods, or at least I haven't come across one yet, and I've been looking pretty damn hard.

Just my person opinion of course, the way you want to practice is up to you. I'm just thinking out loud here, and should probably keep my opinions to myself. I just read the interview and it stuck a cord

I think the push problem happens when people push each other to simulate a strike. Where the push is at should be a strike and they push for safety. Problem is you fight how you train so if you are always pushing then when you fight you will push instead of strike like you are supposed to.

[Josealb]

Theres a clip of Alex Kozma "pushing" with the five elements. He explained that the strike should start, or at least be only halfway, when the contact is made, but you cant really train a strike like that without hurting someone....so a push from contact method is shown, to train Beng jin.

Makes plenty of sense to me.

[C.J.Wang]

Zhao:
Let's start from xingyiquan and baguazhang...
...first xingyiquan. In 1920s and 1930s there were many representatives of xingyiquan among winners of leitai tournaments. But today „power" of xingyiquan decreased. The reason is that apart from problems common for all chinese martial arts, this one which stresses harmony-unity has many aspects where there is lack of such harmony.

For example there is lack of harmony between technique and force. In xingyiquan hitting technique is powered by pushing force. Fists or palms mainly push opponent, in small part causing damage. But it also doesn't allow pushing opponent far away in pushing hands. Actually, it seems as if xingyiquan people have not decided whether their technique is for san shou or for tui shou.

There's probably some translations issues going on here, but I'm 100% behind him on this, as I understand what he's saying. I hate it when I see videos of XingYi people "pushing" people away instead of striking them. XY has distinctive methods of striking and pushing is a completely different thing ( a push starts from contact and accelerates away, hence no pain). I think the huge popularity of Tai Chi is to blame. Having said that the push in Tai Chi isn't meant to be used all the time in confrontations, it just seems that it's become the thing Tai Chi is known for through its popularity as a teaching method. In reality there is no such thing as a push in XY. It's just not one of the arts methods, or at least I haven't come across one yet, and I've been looking pretty damn hard.

Just my person opinion of course, the way you want to practice is up to you. I'm just thinking out loud here, and should probably keep my opinions to myself. I just read the interview and it stuck a cord

I think the push problem happens when people push each other to simulate a strike. Where the push is at should be a strike and they push for safety. Problem is you fight how you train so if you are always pushing then when you fight you will push instead of strike like you are supposed to.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the translation. Based on the Xinyi/Bagua systems I have been exposed to, training how to push correctly is the secret to train the body to develop tremendous punching power. Pushing and hitting engage the same internal muscles, the only difference is the rate of acceleration and deceleration.

Xinyi master Shang Yun-Hsiang's direct student Li Chung-Xuan, after a lifetime of Xinyi practice, wrote an article in his early 90s pointing out that nowadays Xinyi practitioners often confuse training method with application method in terms of energy issue, reflecting on the fact that many young Xinyi enthusiasts often find themselves injured by overdoing fajin motions in training. The reason being that they assume in order to learn how to hit hard with fajin they must fajin every time they practice forms.

[GrahamB]

Hey, everyone can train how they like, doesn't bother me If the method gets results, it gets results, end of story. And there's more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes.

I'm talking about doing stuff on a person, rather than forms against thin air. Personally I don't think people like, say, Mr Strider Clark (in this clip below) would develop the obvious power he's got if he trained by pushing the student in this clip, and likewise I don't think the student would be able to feel and understand the power if he wasn't striking him.



Yep, of course you need to use restraint (and he is using a fair bit of restraint), but the best way to learn that type of power (I believe) is to be on the receiving end. It's uncomfortable and unpleasant, but it's just a bit of pain, and he's not getting seriously injured. That's what I'm talking about. No biggie

best to everyone,
G

[cloudz]

It's good to feel it directly sometimes.The "push" method for safety and training, a few strikes to get the feel, light and heavy. But how much serious training of striking is someone going to let you do on them.

This is what bags are there for fellas. Unless someone wants to freefight/spar then I'm not going to stand there being their personal punchbag!

[middleway]

Theres a clip of Alex Kozma "pushing" with the five elements. He explained that the strike should start, or at least be only halfway, when the contact is made, but you cant really train a strike like that without hurting someone....so a push from contact method is shown, to train Beng jin.

sure, its important to understand that the use of 'push' here isnt the same as the taiji idea of push. When Alex does Beng for instance you can see in the received that he is not being nicely pushed out. even the pushes should feel unstoppable and directly overcoming your centre. It is basically about big power from touch ... not from even one inch, and is simply a method of TESTING your element power. If you shorten the force its a hit with the same power as the one that pushes, but the power remains inside the structure and its dangerous.

There are ways to train hitting each other other than pushing however, bruises and pain are a common aspect of Xing Yi practice.

I think its a mistake to think of the pushing method only as a 'saftey' method. It is also really useful to see where you are 'stuck' in your body, where blockages in the power and weaknesses in the structure are, The receiver really has to stand as strong and rooted as possible and you test your line of force against their rooted connected structure. Its a pity the clips been taken down.

cheers
Chris