What's the difference between 式 and 势?

[ppscat]

式
势

May them be used interchangeably when referring to a form?

Thanks for your help!

[ashe]

are you sure you posted the right character?

according to mdbg shi means " power / influence / potential / momentum / tendency / trend / situation / conditions / outward appearance / sign / gesture / male genitals" whic isn't even close to wu...

[Dmitri]

shi means " power / influence / potential / momentum / tendency / trend / situation / conditions / outward appearance / sign / gesture / male genitals"

Damn... Sooooo, if I were to say "The outward appearance of the tendency of male genitals to influence the powerful momentum of this situation is a sign of the potential trend towards conditional gestures", what would that sound like in Chinese?

(sorry, don't mean to derail... just couldn't help it. It's such a fascinating language. )

[nianfong]

a stance is a 姿勢. you can't use the other shi4 for that meaning. this shi4 is more specific for outward appearances in the martial perspective.

式 (shi4) is more specific for just "style", in the general meaning, as in 陳式太極 (Chen Style taiji)
氏 (shi4) refers to a person, so is used for 陳氏太極 (chen family taiji)
these last two are used interchangeably in this perspective--the meanings are slightly different, but overall is the same.

[SPJ]

1. a posture

or a string of several moves

would be 势.

such as 8 big postures from ba ji or jin gang ba shi.

a palm posture zhang shi etc.

they are 势.

2. a condition for a battle would be tai shi or xing shi. how both armies lay out in different terrains. it is also shi 势.

If we are in a good position and ready to surround the enemy, xing shi is good for us. we are superior or yo shi.

if we are in a bad position, outnumbered, flanked, exposed, etc, we are in an inferior condition or lie shi.

yes, we have to pick up weapons and retreat.

in Sun Zi Bin Fa, there is a chapter about xing shi.

--

and what nian fong said.

[Wuyizidi]

Just want to add to what Fong said:

As we discussed before, each Chinese character can have many meanings, based on what word combination it is in, it all depends on context. In theory, whether we are talking about overall style or individual posture, the correct word to use is 式. Because in this context, 式 is abbreviation for 样式 (yang4 shi4) - model, pattern, form, type, style.

Historically, we've also seen the other shi 势 used. In linguistics, we call this phenomenon yi ti zi (异体字: yi - different, ti - body, zi - character) - two words with similar meanings, sounds similar or identical, so used interchangeably, but often shouldn't be. The other shi 势 can have many meanings, but one common word combination it appears in is jia shi (架势, jia means frame), which can also be written with the other shi (架式). Jia shi, or zhao shi (招式) means individual skill/posture.

In everyday usage, 势 can never be used to refer to an overall model, pattern, form, type, or style. Its usage in martial art then probably started off as an error (teacher transmitted it orally, student wrote it down this way), then perpetuated through tradition. This is very common in traditional culture, given the methods of transmission for manual crafts.

So yes, here those two words are sometimes used interchangeably, and there are no meaningful differences.

The other shi 氏, is like Fong said, means family name, surname. This word is often used when a given teacher had many outstanding students, each displaying prominent stylistic difference while the essence remains the same. Instead of saying Sun Lutang style, people abbreviate it as Sun Shi 氏. They can also abbreBagua and Taiji groups were very large, and when people meet, they ask what type of practice the other person do, instead of saying "I study with Sun Lutang (or Sun Lutang's daughter), or I study Sun Lutang type of practice, people abbreviate that as Sun shi (氏). Of course here people also use the other shi 孙式太极拳. Here 式 sounds more formal. However, when people have to use two shi's in the same sentence, they use different ones, just because it looks more natural that way: so Wu Style 37 Posture (wu shi san shi qi shi) would be 吴氏三十七式.

Wuyizidi

[Darth Rock&Roll]

chinese is an ugly thing to try and make into english. lol

however, english can be troublesome.

especially when you say things like, we'll meet at the meet and mete the meat!

[SPJ]

not to confuse everyone but

zhao shi 招式 is shi 势.

so we may say tai chi 24 (zhao) shi 式.

but when we name each posture, we use 势.

such as beast head posture 势 in chen tai chi.

left or right posture of single whip, we use 势.

--

[ashe]

ha! i looked at shi4 and saw wu3

[nianfong]

Yup, what SPJ said. he basically said that "招式" is the same as saying just "勢"--basically zhao1 shi4 is the colloquial speech (bai hua wen) version of shi4 (more wen yan wen) . My understanding is it is correct to use 招式, and 姿勢. but 提手上勢 (raising hands posture) is necessarily the second shi4 勢.
so when you refer to the 24 posture yang style form, you can use 24式 as a shortening of 24招式. but it would be incorrect to write 提手上式.

I can ask my teacher, but that's just what my understanding. seems I disagree with wuyizidi on this slightly. could it be a simplified chinese vs traditional chinese issue, man?

-Fong

[Wuyizidi]

Complex form: 勢
Simplified form: 势

式 is the same for both complex and simplified form.

Like I said, there are no meaningful differences here. It's not a big deal

[nianfong]

cool man

[ppscat]

Great answers! Being in this forum is so fun and educative, cheers you all!