(Physiological) Alchemy and TCMA

[JonathanArthur]

"my practice is better than your practice"./quote]

there's a lot of that going around in martial arts.

S- just sayin

There's alot of that going around in all areas of life.

I think it was He jinghan who wrote about the importance of self-belief in practice. Without confidence in what method we choose, could we exert the effort nescersary to acheive it's purpose. We are centered around the idea of self; it's human nature.

Which brings me to my point. John mentioned that spiritual beliefs were personal and not to be discussed. I agree to an extent. If you have a question that is directly relevant to your current situation, seek the person whom you believe can give you the most appropiate answer. If someone asks a question of you, give the answer that is to the best of your knowledge, most relevant to their current situation.

Beyond this we are mostly involved in a discussion with ourselves. This is normal I think. Personally, 90% of what I say related to my practice, and more, is probably unnescersary.

Thanks to Dmitri for the invitation.

regards,

Jon

[Walter Joyce]

All in all, I believe Miro's intentions were good, but could have started off more diplomatically.

If Miro started off more diplomatically then we won't have 9 pages of discussion. He may get a couple of "good post" or "I'll second that" and that will be all. Many threads die just because it started off diplomatically and nothing to argue about.

That is pure speculation on your part.

[Ian]

Walter, tell 'im how you really feel!

[Walter Joyce]

Walter, tell 'im how you really feel!

I prefer to tell him what I think.

[kreese]

Fighting does not have to be "fighting". Dave C. has made some good comments lately about how the classics refer to high level ability as a kind of harmony with your opponent, where a minimum of 'force' has to be used. One's emotional and mental state during conflict need not be violent or overly aggressive, at least as an ideal one can strive for. But when it comes to all options having been exhausted, and a situation becomes physical, you better bet that you can get the job done. Period. Spirituality can also play a part in how you deal with someone and how you deal with yourself after the fact. It all starts with ones relationship to him/herself and how that extends to others.

[johnwang]

Walter, tell 'im how you really feel!

I prefer to tell him what I think.

English is a such strange language. I don't know there is difference between "think" and "feel".

[JonathanArthur]

Fighting does not have to be "fighting". Dave C. has made some good comments lately about how the classics refer to high level ability as a kind of harmony with your opponent, where a minimum of 'force' has to be used. One's emotional and mental state during conflict need not be violent or overly aggressive, at least as an ideal one can strive for. But when it comes to all options having been exhausted, and a situation becomes physical, you better bet that you can get the job done. Period. Spirituality can also play a part in how you deal with someone and how you deal with yourself after the fact. It all starts with ones relationship to him/herself and how that extends to others.

In anything we do there is internal resistance of some kind. When i stand or move i'm working to the same goal as Kreese mentioned above. When I interact with people I want to be free to respond in a way that is wholly appropiate, without the resistance created my by fear, anger or the desire to enforce my view upon others etc. There is no limit to the scope of practice, it can extend to fighting in the same way that it can be applied to any interaction in our lives. The mechanism is what is most important.

Whether someone is high or low level is irrelevant to anyone accept themselves. It's about rigorous honesty and self-development.

[kreese]

Yeah, I use the word 'clinical', like a doctor or surgeon, to describe the attitude I try to adopt when training, esp. when working with my partner. I want to observe what reactions well up from within me as well as within my partner.

Ditto that about honesty and self-development - that's why I think fighting is important, not because I like fighting or conflict in any way.

[Walter Joyce]

I stumbled upon the following this morning from "Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty" by Douglas Wile on page 75, a translation of the text "The Eight Gates and Five Steps" written bu Wu Ch'eng-ch'ing, oldest brother of Wu Yu-hsiang:

19. An Explanation of the Three Levels of the Spiritual and Martial in Tai'chi: Without self-cultivation, there would be no means of realizing the tao. Nevertheless, the methods of practice can be divided into three levels. The term level means attainment. The highest level is the greatest attainment; the lower level is the lesser attainment; the middle level is the attainment of sincerity. Although the methods are divided into three levels of practice, the attainment is one. The spiritual is cultivated internally and the martial externally; physical culture is internal and martial arts are external. Those whose practice is successful both internally and externally reach the highest level of attainment. (emphasis added) Those who master the martial arts through the spiritual aspect of physical culture, and those who master the spiritual aspects of physical culture through the martial arts attain the middle level. However, those who know only physical culture, but not the martial arts, or those who know only the martial arts without physical culture represent the lowest level of attainment."

So it seems in the view of the author that one needs to master both the internal and the external to achieve the highest level. I admit that this is the sentiment that is most consistent with my thinking.

Comments?


WTJ

[jafc]

The spiritual is cultivated internally and the martial externally; physical culture is internal and martial arts are external. Those whose practice is successful both internally and externally reach the highest level of attainment. (emphasis added) Those who master the martial arts through the spiritual aspect of physical culture, and those who master the spiritual aspects of physical culture through the martial arts attain the middle level. However, those who know only physical culture, but not the martial arts, or those who know only the martial arts without physical culture represent the lowest level of attainment."

This is an incredibly interesting statement. I am seeing patients but will study it throughout the day. The most interesting part is the use of the term "physical culture" as it relates to something more than martial arts. It's obviously a translation - I wonder what the original words mean.
JC

[jafc]

Lunch break.
I really like this whole quote. I will break down my reasons.

The spiritual is cultivated internally and the martial externally; physical culture is internal and martial arts are external.

Like I said, I am unsure of the veracity of the translation "physical culture". I take it to mean "the study of the body & its working" - or anatomy, physiology & (in chinese cultural context) Chi as it relates to the body.

Those whose practice is successful both internally and externally reach the highest level of attainment.

I agree with Walter. The author clearly thinks that both are needed to achieve the highest level & neither can be neglected. What follows in the next couple of lines is a description of how, by not balancing the two, the middle & lower levels result
.

Those who master the martial arts through the spiritual aspect of physical culture, and those who master the spiritual aspects of physical culture through the martial arts attain the middle level.

A great statement. To me, those who study the body (& its inherit connection with the tao - the "spiritual" )& thereby master martial arts AND those whose mastery of martial arts is their vehicle for understanding the body (& again with its Tao) reach the middle. One place emphasis on the internal as means to the external; the other places emphasis on external as a means to the internal. Both end up in the same place. This is the dichotomy we constantly argue about on this board. Continued wallowing in that dichotomy results in lesser achievements than are possible if the dichotomy is removed. However, because some spirituality is attained through careful study, it is not the lowest level.

However, those who know only physical culture, but not the martial arts, or those who know only the martial arts without physical culture represent the lowest level of attainment."

Here emphasizing only physical culture or martial arts in exclusion of the other results in only low level achievement.

So you gotta have both - at least to some degree - if you want to advance.

I also think this sentiment most accurately reflects my thinking on this subject.

JC

[Walter Joyce]

Nice break down jc, I really enjoyed your analysis, especially as a means of resolving differences among the camps among IMArtists and EMartists. As Dr. Fish has stated all along, if done properly within the traditions of these arts both paths can lead to similar results.

If you want to analyze the original texts, Wiles book contains the Chinese texts as appendices to the book I cited.

[Bill]

[quote="johnwang English is a such strange language. I don't know there is difference between "think" and "feel".[/quote]

IMO, I think Walt wants to express his logical thoughts and not his emotional thoughts.

[Craig]

excellent post walter and jafc. This is my understanding of the arts as well.