BKF's Wu taiji system?

[edededed]

Noting the very interesting Wu taiji threads going on these days, I was re-reading BKF's fine IMA book the other day, when I noticed that he mentioned the lancaihua sparring method, which is known as one of the "inner door" methods in Ma Yueliang's taijiquan system, which I guess means that he learned it.

As Bruce's teacher Liu Hongjie learned from Wu Jianquan as well, it may be interesting to compare Liu's system with that of Ma Yueliang and Wu Jianquan's sons in Hong Kong.

Does anyone know what the "entire system" of Liu's Wu style taijiquan consisted of?

At the least, if Bruce learned the lancaihua method, that means something (does Hong Kong Wu style have this?).

[Wuyizidi]

Noting the very interesting Wu taiji threads going on these days, I was re-reading BKF's fine IMA book the other day, when I noticed that he mentioned the lancaihua sparring method, which is known as one of the "inner door" methods in Ma Yueliang's taijiquan system, which I guess means that he learned it.

As Bruce's teacher Liu Hongjie learned from Wu Jianquan as well, it may be interesting to compare Liu's system with that of Ma Yueliang and Wu Jianquan's sons in Hong Kong.

Does anyone know what the "entire system" of Liu's Wu style taijiquan consisted of?

At the least, if Bruce learned the lancaihua method, that means something (does Hong Kong Wu style have this?).

Luan Cai Hua is the final stage of push hand practice, right before realistic sparring practice. It's common to all Taiji Quan systems. Maybe it's rarer today because most people don't make it to that stage.

Wuyizidi.

[Doc Stier]

Luan Cai Hua is one of the final stages of push hand practice, it's common to all Taiji Quan systems. Maybe it's rarer today because most people don't make it to that stage.

Agreed. Quite so. There are many people who desire the high level end skills, but few who are willing and able to invest the time and effort needed to acquire such skills. All too often nowadays, people align themselves in association with famous teachers, and then either imply or overtly claim to have acquired the teacher's high level skills, but always seem to conveniently avoid demonstrating any actual knowledge and ability of same.

Doc

[steelincotton]

If that's what I think it is, at my club, that translates in Cantonese as "pick up the broken flowers."

[Wuyizidi]

Luan Cai Hua is one of the final stages of push hand practice, it's common to all Taiji Quan systems. Maybe it's rarer today because most people don't make it to that stage.

Agreed. Quite so. There are many people who desire the high level end skills, but few who are willing and able to invest the time and effort needed to acquire such skills. All too often nowadays, people align themselves in association with famous teachers, and then either imply or overtly claim to have acquired the teacher's high level skills, but always seem to conveniently avoid demonstrating any actual knowledge and ability of same.

Doc

These days there are a lot of people living off the interest of their ancestor's good names, instead of acquiring their own reputation, and in doing so adding capital to the reputation of the group.

Li Shuwen doesn't go around saying "you should respect me because I studied Baji from Meng village", or "I know this form, which no one else knows, and it is THE original form...". He beat everyone and make Baji more famous.

I mean, I could say I'm Michael Jordan's student in basketball. But unless I myself is good, it doesn't mean anything.

Wuyizidi

[Wuyizidi]

If that's what I think it is, at my club, that translates in Cantonese as "pick up the broken flowers."

It's the same thing, but there are two different spellings. The one you're talking about use 採 as in randomly 'picking' flowers. The other spelling use 踩 as in 'stepping on', because of totally random footwork.

Wuyizidi

[JessOBrien]

I've learned a bit of the Wu style Tai Chi that Bruce teaches. I've learned the short form, some of the long form and some push hands from him. Never heard him mention the lancaihua method though. Sounds like moving push hands where most anything goes. When we did push hands each night we focused on a different principle. Like one night was about really connecting with your feet and legs to improve your position, another was rotating the torso like a barrel to help avoid a push, another was trying to lead and stay ahead of the push in order to let it go past. Etc. Push hands is good stuff, but Tai Chi is too hard. I prefer the more open rules of san shou/rou shou where smacks can be more freely given.

-Jess O

[bruce]

. Push hands is good stuff, but Tai Chi is too hard. I prefer the more open rules of san shou/rou shou where smacks can be more freely given.

-Jess O

the more "free" "open rules" practice is in my opinion a very important aspect of tai chi chuan push hands practice. people often seem to put very limiting ideas out there about what push hands is and is not. all of the above drills you mentioned are very important aspects to push hands but the free play in my opinion is essential ...

[qiphlow]

the more "free" "open rules" practice is in my opinion a very important aspect of tai chi chuan push hands practice. people often seem to put very limiting ideas out there about what push hands is and is not. all of the above drills you mentioned are very important aspects to push hands but the free play in my opinion is essential ...

+1.
i really enjoy the more freestyle ph stuff.

[Doc Stier]

Lan tsai hua (爛採花), i.e. free fighting, must of necessity be based on previous acquisition of the foundation principles and techniques of a given style. Only in this way, can the practice have any logical and rational relevance to the style's practical usage applications. As a result, lan tsai hua is normally practiced traditionally only by those who have already developed the necessary knowledge and skills needed to realistically engage in such practices.

Since the vast majority of contemporary tai-chi chuan enthusiasts apparently only ever learn a slow motion form set of one style or another, and some rudimentary push hands (tui-shou), more advanced traditional training methods and practices, such as lan tsai hua, never even enter into the picture of their overall training regimen.

Doc

[C.J.Wang]

And let's not forget free-fighting, which supposedly came after various types of PH.

[steelincotton]

Lan tsai hua (爛採花), i.e. free fighting, must of necessity be based on previous acquisition of the foundation principles and techniques of a given style. Only in this way, can the practice have any logical and rational relevance to the style's practical usage applications. As a result, lan tsai hua is normally practiced traditionally only by those who have already developed the necessary knowledge and skills needed to realistically engage in such practices.

Since the vast majority of contemporary tai-chi chuan enthusiasts apparently only ever learn a slow motion form set of one style or another, and some rudimentary push hands (tui-shou), more advanced traditional training methods and practices, such as lan tsai hua, never even enter into the picture of their overall training regimen.

Doc

Doc hit the nail firmly on the correct here imo! It's usually reserved for senior students, and at first, it's the student who takes the more offensive action. The way I understand it, one must possess the body method (shen fa) of the given system first before engaging in Lan Cho Hua practice. Otherwise, it's just flailing away with no underlying foundations. From my experience, the feet should be in the hands.

[shawnsegler]

From my experience, the feet should be in the hands.

QFT

[Doc Stier]

From my experience, the feet should be in the hands.

Thanks, Tom. That's a nice touch added to this thread.

Doc

[edededed]

Ah, interesting about lancaihua, I just always assumed it was a Wu thing - will have to do some searching...