I'm converting

[shawnsegler]

But where is the internal taiji jing?

S- ducks

[Brady]

Akuzawa is the only one I met, but after I weekend of training with him I was convinced of the efficacy and simplicity of his methods. His translator and student (posts as upyu I think) has only been with him for a couple years and has some great skills. I'd at least give him a shot, he's no1 on my current list of people I wish I was closer to.

[CaliG]

OP, I'd still stick with doing the CMA stuff you've found useful.

I don't know anything about your training but I've found that CMA has a lot of training methods that work out wonderfully when combined with some combat sports training.

For example, doing your fajin exercises and then stepping up to a heavy bag or vice versa really gets your juice in your hands like nothing else over just doing one or the other.

As far as a school only you know what you're really looking for, but I imagine in Japan you could find a lot of schools that have some solid training which aren't known of outside of Japan. Another thing to keep in mind is that the most popular MMA schools are usually the most competitive, some people learn better in that kind of environment and some don't.

[ashe]

Could you please explain, "deeper" in what way?

well, that's a complex question and answer really. which is why i say su can offer something deeper than what your going to find in an mma gym.

there's only so many ways to cause harm to another human being, and they're more or less found in every fighting art in the world.

on a superficial level, comparing my experience in grappling to what my Sifu has, is like comparing coal to diamonds. don't get me wrong, coal is practical and you can do a lot with it, but it's not clear and lasting like a diamond. mma (to me) is the same, it's effective, but it's not anywhere near as sophisticated as what my Sifu has.

but even beyond this, to me, what really makes CMA unique is their entanglement with the monastic traditions of china. if you go to a decent mma gym, you can learn to be a better fighter, no question, but can you learn how to live your life better? i don't think so. the fighters who aren't drug addicts (steroids, narcotics, meth, etc.), or aren't running around with porn stars or strippers, or just aren't outright mean spirited, and angry are the minority it seems.

because of the entanglement with the dhamma and the dao, the CMA are saturated in deep philosophies and have concepts that can help you learn about yourself and others, gain some wisdom and maybe a measure of peace in your life, which IMO, is completely missing in mma, because it's only focused on one thing; success in the ring.

[Elliot]

Ashe,

Thanks for your answer. I'm still not exactly sure what you mean by CMA training being "deeper" than MMA training, it sounds like you equate "deeper" with CMA teachers preaching Chinese philosophy. You're right, I've never heard any philosophy or religion being preached in MMA gyms.

It's interesting you believe most practitioners of MMA are drug addicts. I agree there is performance enhancing drug use in all sports, but I've never met a single MMA practitioner that was addicted to meth, or any other narcotic. You see it's hard to train hours a day if you are high. MMA fighters are also, in my experience, very cool guys. Real fight training, with contact, weeds out mean spirited people, they are too dangerous to train with.

Which MMA gyms did you train in that had so many drug addicts and mean students?

[Eric]

Eliot, do you really think this forum needs yet another discussion of the type you are trying to encourage?

[Royal Dragon]

You don't see mean spiritness? Maybe you need to look at that yammato highlights clip again. That guy is a total ego maniac extreme punk. He reminds me of the Latino gang bangers from Humble park only jacked up on 10,000 volts of speed and meth at the same time. In his case, mean spirit is an understatement.

The best thing for the sport would be for someone to just shoot him and put him out of everyone's misery.

[FigureFour]

i think youve been watching too much TUF ashe.

be it pro, amateur, an opponent, etc. i have yet to meet any MMA fighters who were anything less than really nice guys. in my opinion you CAN learn to live your life better at an MMA gym. healthy competition can teach you humility and hard work along with many other things. if someones looking for something more spiritual, id say that specific study of daoism, buddhism, meditation etc, is a lot more useful than the bits and pieces you get from CMA. --note-- i say that as someone who has studied CMA, buddhism, daoism, and meditation

obviously there ARE good reasons (most of them being personal ones) for practicing CMA. ive got a lot of my own. however, a bit of time dabbling in sport can only do good and any martial artist who lives in tokyo (with its staggering amount of skilled sport fighters and good sport gyms) and doesnt at least give MMA a chance is probably doing themselves a disservice.

[ParryPerson]

Most of the MMA guys I have met are egomanics with to much testosterone and fight for the thrill and adrenaline rush.

Most.

[shawnsegler]

Thanks for your answer. I'm still not exactly sure what you mean by CMA training being "deeper" than MMA training, it sounds like you equate "deeper" with CMA teachers preaching Chinese philosophy.

The difference is how you use your mind during training and the ancillary effects of that process.

Everyones body is both "open" (and by that I mean accessible to "feeling") and torpid to a certain extent based on the experiences of their lives. Kung Fu training tends to be long and arduous in a different way that is practiced by MAists from other styles...you can see this when people cut down on their standing or walking practice because it's "not necessary" to stand or walk a long period of time if just fighting is your primary focus and your fighting all the time.

So anyway, if you "eat bitter" with these kungfu practices which are necessarily boring and mind numbingly difficult for extended periods of time than you start gaining other benefits which are very useful to fighting by the very act of doing it. I'm talking about a level of mind body synthesis that won't be garnered without the very specific training methodologies...do you need that stuff to fight? No. Is it useful to fighting? Yes.

So, "deeper" is in the eye of the beholder but kung fu and not kung fu are apples and oranges.

S

[ashe]

Real fight training, with contact, weeds out mean spirited people, they are too dangerous to train with.

Which MMA gyms did you train in that had so many drug addicts and mean students?

by drugs i was referring mostly to prescription stuff, but if you don't think there's drug use in the sport, check out the doc "the smashing machine", or one very similar about pro-wrestling called "beyond the ropes". now, of course i wasn't suggesting that every fighter is on drugs, just that many are.

as as far as mean spirited, kid yamamoto has already been mentioned, and here's another example; marc coleman. my grappling coach used to work with him in the early days of his career when we was moving away from wrestling and into pro-fighting and the way he tells it, coleman is the downright meanest most aggressive s.o.b. on earth.

it's really a seedy world. the promoter are shady, ring girls, etc.

but, to stay on topic, if i had the chance to train at sakuraba's dojo, i would, because you're going to find plenty of guys to train hard with there. more than you'd find in your average CMA school by far, and if you really want to get somewhere, you've got to do some bitter work. it's just that your not going to find anything more than that (in general).

let's go back to my grappling coach again. he's strong, good at what he does and at 50+ is still formidable. but he train's just for the effect. he likes to get in a workout and work up a sweat.

my Sifu on the other hand, trains for the cause and he's on a whole different level. like quantum leap, different, both in terms of his skill level and as a human being.

which is why, in this case, i suggested Z_K train with su as well, because i would say that the likelihood of him getting exposed to something that goes much deeper than just effectiveness in the ring is pretty good.

[shawnsegler]

Mark Kerr scares the fuck out of me. I would never want to be on the wrong end of someone so whacked out.

S

[Dmitri]

Depends on the school I guess... Most (if not all) that I've met were nice, yet the guys on TV aren't... It all depends. A certain school/teacher will attract a certain type of people... MMA or not -- the same is true for all other (I)MA.

[JAB]

I wonder how many of you actually have had experiences with MMA gyms, and how many of you are saying shit out the corner of your mouth! To make wide ranging generalizations such as about the aggressiveness, and drugs is silly. No more or less than any other MA including CMA IME. Now everyones experience is different, and certainly there are no shortage of assholes out there. But I think if some of you put away your fears and prejudices you will find that most all BJJ / MMA schools are top notch places that welcome you. To be honest I have been injured worse, and more often in TMA schools more than BJJ / MMA / GRappling schools! Many of these people are actually bullies who exhibit absolutely no control nor care for control. Gotta' remember in MMA / BJJ we NEED our partners in class tomorrow, so we train smart and carefully.
As for "deeper" that is again subjective. I have met many spiritual (Red Belt-ish for lack of a better example) type BJJ / MMA / Grapplers! Just like in the CMA it all depends on the teacher and the enviornment he/she has created for their students.
You all look a bit fearful and insecure when you make general statements about aggression, drugs, and attitudes in certain gyms, basically absolving the CMA of similar things!

Cheers
Jake

[Elliot]

Eric asks,

Eliot, do you really think this forum needs yet another discussion of the type you are trying to encourage?

Apparently so.

Royal Dragon,
Of course there will be exceptions to every generalization. You sound like a man very intimidated by a person you'll never meet.

Good post Shawn, I understand what you mean by the discipline of arduous practice. But if you substitute "standing and walking practice" with the same amount of often boring and mind numbingly difficult rounds on a heavybag or conditioning circuits for example, why wouldn't the result be the same? When it comes to the results of "eating bitter," is there something inherently superior about walking in circles?

It sounds like FigureFour and JAB may be the only posters here that actually train in MMA gyms.