the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Hey Gang,

I've been developing a fairly comprehensive Bagua Family Tree. Ran into a few practitioners that I need some help with.....

Liu Shiku (son of Liu Bin - Cheng Style Baguazhang) - and two of his notable students: Xu Zhenbiao (1913-1991) and Han Wu (1912-?) - I think that all three of them lived in Beijing. Any info or pics are appreciated.

Wang Wenkui (another student of Liu BIn) - need bio info on him and notable students; Su Jinbeo, Xiang Yucai, and Wang Zhenting.

Zhang Qinglin (1905-1984) - Yin Style practitioner in Beijing. Anyone know his instructor(s)?

Xu Lifang, Duan Bingzhang and Qian Wanzhang (students of Cheng Youxin) need bio, pic, info

Sun Jianyun (daughter of Sun Lutang) need a little more on her bio and a pic

Cheng Yougong (nephew of Cheng Tinghua) - I have a fair amount on his bio, but need info on any disciples


If anyone has info on any of these practitioners please let me know. I've exhausted all my resorces.

Here are links to the tree ...... just remember that it is still under construction.
Principle Disciples of Dong Haichuan - http://www.8gua.info/html/principle_disciples.html
Disciples of Yin Fu - http://www.8gua.info/html/yin_fu_disciples.html
Disciples of Cheng Tinghua - http://www.8gua.info/html/cheng_disciples.html

Thanks,
~Rand

Awesome research ma man!

Very good job and very interesting.

Cheers!

Not bad. A bunch of typos on people's names but this is something I have wanted to do for a long time. Now I don't have to. I like.

Lots of hard work there! It seems that the Chinese characters are often wrong, though (what encoding is this? Maybe I am viewing it wrong?). Also, some names are wrong, etc.

Off the top of my head:
1. Li Mengrui (under Liang Zhenpu) and Li Shao'an (under Yin Fu) are the same persons! (Note the very similar photos and birth information, etc.) He was a disciple of Liang Zhenpu, not Ma Gui.
2. He Puren was a disciple of Cao Zhongsheng, not Zhang Jinchen.
3. Fu Jianqiu was foremost a disciple of Li Cunyi.

I suspect that Su Jinbeo (haphazard Chinese transliteration) = Xu Zhenbiao.
Zhang Qinglin learned from Yin Fu.
Xiang Yucai should be Bai Yucai.

Well, may post later...

Thanks - I think that I've made all the corrections that have been flooding in on here, PM's and email. I also decided to take off the Chinese characters since several folks reported problems viewing them and that some were incorrect. Anyway, if anyone finds any more errors just let me know. My goal is to make these trees as accurate as possible.
~Rand

I can provide more information about Wang Shujin if that would be of interest.

- the precise origins of his lineage and what he was known for teaching in later life are complex... he is indeed listed as having studied from Zhang Zhaodong, Xiao Haibo (of Bapan zhang) and Wang Xiangzhai. However the forms that he was known for in Taiwan owe a strong influence to Chen Panling. When he first moved to Taiwan he roomed with Zhang Junfeng and there was some exchange there as well (it is sometimes said that Zhang was senior in boxing circles but junior in Yi Guan Dao). The subject usually stimulates shall we say a certain amount of debate... It is true to say that Wang did not emphasise external form but rather posture and it's internal mechanics in movement... in this way the following links may broadly be helpful:
Form - Chen Panling
Standing - Wang Xiangzhai
Stepping method - Xiao Haibo
Single movement exercises - Zhang Zhaodong.

- the Japanese asked Chen Panling to go and teach, Chen asked Wang to go in his sted. Wang took with him his then senior disciple Zhang Yizhong as translator, who subsequently stayed behind and taught under the name Cho Sensei. (There was subsequently a falling out between Wang and Zhang).

- Yi Guan Dao is an syncretist sect , incoporating elements of Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism.

Disicples would include:
Zhang Yizhong
Wang Fulai (1941-)
Lai TianZhao
Huang JinSheng
Chao PiaoSheng
Marnix Wells
Manfred Rottman
Hidemine Jibiki (1927-)

(Sato Kinbei and Robert Smith were also long-time students but did not bai shi to my knowledge)

There is more, but the above are the major points.

Sorry, made a mistake above:

Zhang Qinglian (not Qinglin) was a disciple of Li Baosen, who in turn was a disciple of Yin Fu.

I think that including the Chinese characters is better (you just have to specify the encoding with meta tags to avoid mess-ups).

As for Zhang Yizhong: Zhang = Cho (read in Japanese pronunciation). (Basically, apparently ancient Japanese could not pronounce "ng" ending sounds, so they did a "Jau" sound instead, which became "Chau" and then "Cho" or something like that.)

Ancient japanese? Really? Maybe just "japanese".

S

According to the information of our line, Li ShaoAn was a student of MaGui along with Liu WanChun (who is responsible of the transmission to this day).

Master Li ShaoAn AKA Li MengRui（1888-1980）
Li ShaoAn was born and raised in HaiYang county, Shandong province, and later moved to Beijingand opened a large restaurant called Yu Chun Lou. When Ma Gui was in his old age he was very poor; Li ShaoAn took care of him and supported him during this time without asking anything in return. Ma Gui later passed on all his bagua knowledge to Li ShaoAn, had it not been for Li ShaoAn Ma Gui bagua may have been lost forever.

Li ShaoAn's bagua reached the highest level, he was known for his "dragging palm" and people called him "Iron arm Li." He was just as well-known for being an upright and generous person, he was good friends with many other bagua masters, such as Li WenBiao, Yin YuZhang, Liu Bin, Liang ZhenPu and famous external martial artist of the time.

When Li WenBiao was killed during a military rebellion, only Li ShaoAn dared to commemorate him, spending a lot of money to obtain his body and give him a proper burial.

During the cultural revolution Li ShaoAn was treated very badly and sent to the country side for re-education in Shandong province. The above picture was taken in 1972 and reflects the hard life he had at the time. I am making this picture public for the first time to show my utmost respect for this great figure in bagua history.

Source : www.maguibagua.com

Segs:

It's more complicated than that... Basically, the sounds they could pronounce have changed through the years.

Plante:

I have read the site before - certainly, that means that there is a contradiction somewhere (Liang Zhenpu lines have always noted Li Shao'an as one of Liang's most famous disciples (not "friends")). On the other hand, Li's being from Shandong, having the restaurant, and being known for his "dragging palm" seems to be the same.

By the way, do you know what the "dragging palm" that is being talked of means here? Do you have that in Ma Gui baguazhang?

Sun Jian Yun learned from her father, Sun Lu Tang. Search the web for a pic.
Jake

Ed, not too sure about the translation. But what could be is "daishou" wich is one of the skills of MaGui bagua, we have plenty of training for that.

For the history part, I have absolutely no idea who's right. I guess he could have studied with both. But he did not left students in our line.

Nice Tom! Where is the one of her laughing from? That is a great shot. Can you send it to me in email highest quality you can get?
Thanks
Jake

Plante:

"Daishou" is correct! However, although lots of baguazhang substyles have some kind of "daishou," the content is often quite different (the Chinese characters may be different as well).

As for history, well - of course we cannot know for sure, but it is possible that Li Shao'an (although a disciple of Liang Zhenpu) learned some from Ma Gui (Guo Gumin, Li's brother in the Liang line, learned from Ma Gui as well as others). Liang style also mentions that Li did not have any disciples, although he sometimes taught other people's disciples.