The Mechanics of IP

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:00 pm

Brian,

Got anything on the mechanics of suspending the crown, since obviously there's nothing above the head physiologically to hold it up?


Yes. I've explained before in previous threads that it is anatomically and physically impossible for a human being to elongate his head/neck along the longitudinal axis. Therefore, from a purely technical point point of view, the classic admonition to 'raise the crown' is based on a proposition that is false. We also know that anatomy/physiology/physics/biomechanics, etc. have come a very long way since the days when a series of mostly illiterate and uneducated laymen who happened to practice the societally lower class practice of martial arts first came up with their various sayings, admonitions and axioms. However, strict technical accuracy isn't absolutely essential when we take these sayings as the analogies and metaphors that they were always understood to be. In this case, the feeling (kinesthetically and proprioceptively) is such that it feels very much like one's head is stretched and suspended along the longitudinal axis of the body, even if it isn't.

What's actually happening here is that the head is brought into parallel with the transverse plane of the body, and very slight contractions of the erector spinae and trapezius straighten the spine to its full natural length. Similarly barely perceptible contractions of the latissimus dorsi, infraspinatus, rhomboids and deltoids serve to pull downward on the shoulder/pectoral girdle, with the resulting pull on the scapula and clavicle producing a very slight stretch of the trapezius, resulting in a feeling of the head stretching away from the body.

As to lowering the pelvis, the spine has a natural 'S' curve to it under normal healthy circumstances. Pronation of the lower spine does actually stretch that 'S', resulting in very slight elongation of the torso while the pronation is held.

As to your final point, I'm not exactly sure what it is you are subjectively describing, though I would suggest that "fulcrum" might not be the right word, given that there is nothing against which the cervical spine/skull can "anchor" in a real sense, though it's possible the feeling you are experiencing might very well seem that way. The multifidi and rotatores, along with other smaller supportive spinal muscles, can provide an impressive degree of spinal stability and even torsion (if carefully trained), which might have something to do with your experience.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:10 pm

I was taught that the saying of 百会悬 Baihui Xuan is just to get people to properly tuck their chin.

Baihui point is more towards the back part of the head, near the crown. A teacher can put his finger on that point and tell you to tuck your chin and roll your head forward until his finger is at the top, uppermost point of the head. That's where your chin is properly tucked down for fighting, not too much, nor too little, just right.


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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby kreese on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:22 am

Sprint wrote:Kreese - I've no idea where you're coming from. I don't know if you are asking me stuff or telling me.


I didn't read your post, so you're just imagining things. Seriously. Not everything is about you.

If something I wrote rubbed you the wrong way, I'm sorry I guess, but it was not intentional.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Sprint on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:54 am

kreese wrote:
Sprint wrote:Kreese - I've no idea where you're coming from. I don't know if you are asking me stuff or telling me.


I didn't read your post, so you're just imagining things. Seriously. Not everything is about you.

If something I wrote rubbed you the wrong way, I'm sorry I guess, but it was not intentional.


Ouch! What I was trying to find out was if you were referring to my post. I could n't figure out if you were or not, but guessed so, on the basis that it would be polite to respond if you were. If that makes sense. Anyway no worries.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Josealb on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:32 pm

Good chunks of info here. Wheres Bodywork?
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Strange on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:28 pm

beggin your pardon, i believe it should be 百会穴 bai hui xue.
lit. hundred gathering/meeting ... er, hole
no, not point, hole
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:47 pm

Strange wrote:beggin your pardon, i believe it should be 百会穴 bai hui xue.
lit. hundred gathering/meeting ... er, hole
no, not point, hole


I don't think you know what's being discussed.

It's the classic saying of:

百会悬 Baihui Xuan

It's assumed that the person would know that Baihui refers to the acupuncture point.

百会 [穴位] 悬 Baihui [Xuewei] Xuan

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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Strange on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:48 pm

oh ok, i think you meant to say that this is a term used in bagua classics.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Daniel on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:36 am

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Strange on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:53 am

yes, i have advised caution on the point of understanding cima on its own terms on a number of occasions; only to have some forum members misunderstanding me as some sort of martial arts racist. i can only say to myself that they do not understand that i am someone who have traveled on the same road that they have.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Daniel on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:58 am

Sorry, I don´t follow. Can you give examples of what you are talking about?


D.

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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Strange on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:02 am

using western concepts to try and understand/explain cima, for example.
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Daniel on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:04 am

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
Last edited by Daniel on Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby Strange on Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:27 am

while i always say speed is the device of shaitan; time is indeed of the essence :)
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: The Mechanics of IP

Postby jjy5016 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:02 am

Mechanics when issuing force or using jin:

Use of six (minimum)directions in which the body (and limbs) stretch. (support)

The spine rotates as a whole. No twisting or wringing like a towel. Shoulders stay in line with the kua. Torso rotates right and left like the agitator in a washing machine.

Knees stay stable allowing force to come up and be transmitted through the legs to the waist. If the knees wobble or move then a lot of force gets lost.

Back is spread out taught. Shoulders down, connected to the rest of the frame. Not floating up.

Weight is forward in the feet not centered over the heels.

Head is stretched up slightly with the bai hui point as if pulled up by a string. Spine stretched down as if a weight being supported by the hui yin point.

Arms do not push using the strength of the shoulder or triceps muscles.

Ti or lifting force in the elbows and knees.

These are the physical mechanics I look for in someone.
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I'm always careful to lift the seat when IP
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