The Mechanics of IP

[Ron Panunto]

Mechanics when issuing force or using jin:

The spine rotates as a whole. No twisting or wringing like a towel. Shoulders stay in line with the kua.

I don't think this is true for Bagua.

[Sprint]

Thanks for the explanation Sprint Although it differs somewhat from my thoughts on the mechanics its interesting to hear. I will try and find time to post my thoughts in the next few days.
Regards
Chris

I expect you've been busy Chris, but it would be good to get your thoughts.

[jjy5016]

Mechanics when issuing force or using jin:

The spine rotates as a whole. No twisting or wringing like a towel. Shoulders stay in line with the kua.

I don't think this is true for Bagua.

I guess it depends on which line of bagua one practices. The bagua teachers I know teach on not to wring the spine. Very dangerous when encountering great force.

[Pandrews1982]

i disagree with the spine thing too. in my xing yi this wringing like a towel is called dragon body, it should be present in everything, classical san-ti-shi posture should emphasise this twist, left arm/shoulder reaching out, right hip pressing forward.

[jjy5016]

I'll argue that keeping the spine from twisting allows for rotation of the entire spine as a unit which transfers the rotation of the pelvis up through the spine and out to the arms. For me a twist would indicate that part of the spine has stopped while the rest of it continued. I believe that if the lower part of the spine has stopped and the upper part has continued that the upper part of the torso is twisting via muscular force instead of momentum.

Do those of you who advocate the wringing of the like a towel subscribe to the belief that there is a springy resiliency in the spine that keeps it from harm?

Dragon body, from what I've seen demonstrated by some is not a wringing of the spine but a rippling of the spine up and down through the vertebra. There are some techniques I know of that use a side to side "wave" wave of the spine but never a twisting. Would be interested in how the wringing is used in issuing and receiving force.


Small John

[Chris McKinley]

RE: the spine twisting thingy. The spine will not twist very far even at full "rotation" of each individual vertebra. As such, and assuming absolutely no dysfunction of the spine to begin with, activating the spinal support muscles can actually help to stabilize the spine against injury upon impact. For perspective though, the kind of force that can damage a spine that is in proper alignment isn't going to be mitigated by the support muscles much anyway. The real point to using those muscles is the great degree of torque that can be generated for outgoing, not incoming, force. It's an additive component, not a stand-alone parlor trick.

[Ron Panunto]

Mechanics when issuing force or using jin:

The spine rotates as a whole. No twisting or wringing like a towel. Shoulders stay in line with the kua.

I don't think this is true for Bagua.

I guess it depends on which line of bagua one practices. The bagua teachers I know teach on not to wring the spine. Very dangerous when encountering great force.

How can you walk the circle in the single palm change posture without twisting the spine? The hips point straight ahead and the arms point towards the center of the circle - that is a 90 degree twist of the spine.

[jjy5016]

RE: the spine twisting thingy. The spine will not twist very far even at full "rotation" of each individual vertebra. As such, and assuming absolutely no dysfunction of the spine to begin with, activating the spinal support muscles can actually help to stabilize the spine against injury upon impact. For perspective though, the kind of force that can damage a spine that is in proper alignment isn't going to be mitigated by the support muscles much anyway. The real point to using those muscles is the great degree of torque that can be generated for outgoing, not incoming, force. It's an additive component, not a stand-alone parlor trick.

Not talking about rotating the individual vertebra I'm talking about rotating the entire spine and pelvis without moving the legs.

It is a small range of motion but still it can be done without having the top portion of the spine move once the lower portion has stopped. Whether receiving or issuing. The movement I'm told is controlled by the psoas muscles.

Don't know about parlor tricks.

[Chris McKinley]

Psoas issues are extremely common with regard to low back pain, so yes, they can pull the whole thing out of alignment. IME, this might become problematic among folks who haven't first learned to feel the difference between their hips and their waist distinctly. It is common for people attempting to isolate the waist for movement to also fire the psoas, pulling the lower spine on each side in turn toward the psoas's femur attachment, resulting in the activation of the erector spinae, glutes and hamstrings in order to balance out the pull and stop the hips from moving.

As to the parlor trick comment, I'm referring to the demonstration version of the spinal torsion skill whereby you knock somebody off their feet from zero distance with a fully extended arm. The torsion generates most of the force and there is very little outward movement on the part of the demonstrator, but the receiver can be popped back on their ass several feet.

[middleway]

I expect you've been busy Chris, but it would be good to get your thoughts.

ahh sorry mate. have been manic. only time for little posts here n there. I will defo work on something more useful in the next week or so.

Havnt even had time to read this thread through

cheers
chris

[jjy5016]

I just found this video we shot in Chinatown from a few years ago. It's a drill I learned early on in yiquan that was supposed to have originated with Guo Yun Shen and mimics him while he was in his prison cell with his hands and feet bound.

http://vimeo.com/9993035

password: medurga

Among other things this is for practicing the rotation of the spine to the left and right while not compromising the stance. Done correctly this teaches one to transfer power from the ground up through the legs, hips etc. just like it says in the taiji classics. The spine is only turning a bit but because of their distance from the spine the movement of the hands is on a larger arc. This is great for learning silk reeling or luo xuan jin as every part of the body engaged for the delivery of connected force.

Notice how the shirt doesn't change as my torso turns.

[edededed]

Very nice drill, very generous, jjy5016, thanks!

[bailewen]

I tried the link and entered the password but it still tells me the video if private.

Very curious.

[C.J.W.]

I just found this video we shot in Chinatown from a few years ago. It's a drill I learned early on in yiquan that was supposed to have originated with Guo Yun Shen and mimics him while he was in his prison cell with his hands and feet bound.

http://vimeo.com/9993035

password: medurga

Among other things this is for practicing the rotation of the spine to the left and right while not compromising the stance. Done correctly this teaches one to transfer power from the ground up through the legs, hips etc. just like it says in the taiji classics. The spine is only turning a bit but because of their distance from the spine the movement of the hands is on a larger arc. This is great for learning silk reeling or luo xuan jin as every part of the body engaged for the delivery of connected force.

Notice how the shirt doesn't change as my torso turns.

Nice drill. What I've found over the years is that the simpler, more basic a drill appears, the farther it will carry you in the long run.

One question: Were you taught to keep the knees perfectly still throughout the torso rotation, or are the knees allowed to move forward and backward (not swaying from side to side)?

[jjy5016]

The knees aren't supposed to move at all. Sifu would yell if they moved 1/4 inch, reason being that some of the force (leverage?) from the ground would be compromised and one would be using the leg to push instead of the kua to go further. This is the torso moving independent of the legs, spinal rotation. I do it in san ti as well but that's a bit harder.