The search for jibengong

[kenneth fish]

Interesting you should mention Alex Kwok - he knows the material I am referring to (his teacher, Ye Yuting, was an SOB about it - very strict.)

[phil b]

What Andy wrote should be familiar if you've felt it. The hands on transmission is vital for this kind of training. Steve Rowe posted an article about Chap Sau from an interview with Jim Uglow. I recall some posters describing it as 'cultist' or words to that effect. My experience with Jim, over nearly ten years of private classes taught me the value of this. Everything I did, from the moment class started, had this. Even just standing up straight was adjusted, corrected.
Jim use to tell people to watch a beginners class, because watching the seniors was pointless. Jim making minuscule corrections that needed to be felt told the observer nothing. Very few people I have met teach like this. The value of this kind of training is often misunderstood by the "shit is fake" brigade. Ignorance is bliss because this kind of training is bloody awful. That said, if you can find someone to teach you like this, one day, maybe, you will be grateful. For the most part, you will hate every minute of it.

Phil

[Strange]

imo, correct yiquan/zz practice is suppose to have a basic component. it is called health stances and suppose to provide the practitioner with the basic physical and mental abilities/understanding to progress into combative zz.

yiquan believes that there should be no form and that once there is form, that form is fake. while i believe that yq practitioners can benefit from other forms of basic fighting arts to use the jin that is developed in zz, and also to understand the concepts therein; to say that yq does not have jibengong is akin to asking why there is no wool in my silk shirt.

also i do not believe that jibengong is something not without "dangers". excessive/sudden stretching of tendons and over torquing of joint over their natural angle of movement is not something that should be imposed for a long period of time.

for example, some xingyi practitioners do their swallow forms through and under a table, or standing in extremely low stances for extended periods of time. it can be detrimental to the natural form if done without good instruction and supervision.

[Iskendar]

Ok, here's some of the aunkai core exercises.


Here too, mindful practice is an absolute necessity, and minor posture corrections by the teacher can turn "damn this hurts" into "OMG I'm gonna die". Is this getting closer?

[Sprint]

I must say I am pleasantly surprised by the generally good, intelligent responses this thread has gotten, as well as the fact that we got this far before the usual "whatta ya mean my shit is fake" and "oh yeah? you think you're so smart?" and "this is what I do, and since I do it this way it must be what you are talking about" responses started.

This thread and the thread on the distillery are in no way directed towards any individuals - on the contrary, as I said, the intent is to point out a major part of information that is generally not being transmitted at the very beginning. Not only is it not being transmitted, the lack of awareness of its existence means that students do not know what it is that they lack when compared to earlier generations of Chinese martial artists - all they see is that somehow the skills and achievements are different, and they may attempt to address the problem, if they see one, by pulling in training from various disciplines that do not produce the same results.

The only way to get this training is from a teacher who is willing to impart it. This is the material that forms the true core of Chinese martial arts - and is generally closely held. Yuanming, and I think to some extent Andy, have an idea of what I am talking about.

Jonathon: I would like you to humor me if you would. Since your teacher and grandteacher are still around - approach your grandteacher and say something like "I have been doing this for a long time, but I still do not feel I have grasped the foundation and basics of the system - the work that really builds skill. Could you train me from scratch the way the old teachers taught you?" (If you can say this in Chinese even better). I believe one of several things will happen:
1. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then pat you on the back and say something like "oh no, you are doing really well - keep up the good work"
2. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then say "ok - lets see how you do" and teach you one or two very simple exercises that you will realize later are training muscles that you were not aware needed training - and will give you the strength to do "basics" properly.
3. Your Grandteacher will direct you towards your teacher, who he will give instructions to on how and what to teach you.

Regarding a Karate background: In Taiwan and China 30 or so years ago, if a student came with a solid Karate background, most Chinese teachers would consider their movement and mindset so corrupted that they would not bother trying to change it through remedial exercise.

Also: Yes, I have done MMA basic training - as long ago as 1995 and 1996. I found it less challenging then the boxing training of my youth. I have periodically revisited the issue, and while a lot has changed in terms of breadth of training, it still, in my opinion, doesn't hold up to Gleason's Gym circa 1962-65.

As far as military basic training goes - please stop whining. Both Doc and I went through shit in training (and later combat) in Vietnam and S.E. Asia that would make your hair curl. End of topic.

Ken since you have been so effusive in your answer and also that you ask Jonathan to humor you, could I ask you to do the same and answer my questions.

For instance, and correct me if I'm wrong here - I'd assume that all modern Yi Quan training has this flaw of lacking the foundations you speak of (as they immediately start the beginner with ZZ).

......As for your last point - bingo. Bear in mind that Yiquan was founded by someone with a lot of foundation training and training in style.

...............Zhanzhuang assumes foundation skills. Without them, you are just standing........

Ergo ZZ on it's own "is just standing".....Really..? Are you sure about that? What do you mean by "just standing"

[klonk]

OMNISCIENCE

Knowing what
thou knowest not
is in a sense
omniscience.

--Piet Hein, "Grooks"

Dr. Fish, if I am reading him correctly, is talking about conditioning sets I do not know, and that people I know do not know, and we do not know what we do not know, because then we would have some sense of what it is. This is a substantial problem! Of course the tendency is to say our received doctrine is good enough, and click on the next thread.

However, I see a willingness in many here to entertain the idea that there is a huge blind spot in our grasp of basics. This need not be taken as a bitter pill to swallow; most good martial artists have their eyes open for new insights all the time.

It would seem that what I know is what everyone knows, the various swinging, stretching and bending exercises, and single technique drills, and standing, the stuff DaDa rightly identifies as the usual jibengong. At some point I found standing the most useful of these.

I would like to learn yiquan someday, but there is no one teaching it in my area and distance learning is not for me. Fortunately I could find standing elsewhere. For instance, it is a part of Yang taiji, though it is not in the usual dippy hippy curriculum. I supplemented my knowledge, or at least my information, with Lam Kam Chuen's books and videos.

I think I've done the best I can with the material available. That is not to say someone else could not have done better with the same stuff, but we are all in a position of making the best use we can of what comes along. Otherwise we are not martial artists but copycat technicians; all good martial arts are adapted or 'stolen' to some degree. That is to say, they are personalized.

So I suggest keeping an open mind about this stuff. I find that I need not feel huffy and insulted at the idea that my understanding is lacking even to the point of not knowing what it is I do not know. If you think about it, that's a commonplace part of the human condition.

[kenneth fish]

Thank you Klonk - that is very much the direction I intended.

When I say that without this training Zhanzhuang is just standing - what I mean is that you will not have the muscular mechanics that the jibengong provides in order to get the benefits beyond what any untrained person might have - zhanzhuang is not a passive exercise - there is motion and dynamically opposed muscle work in zhanzhuang that you do not get or understand by just standing in posture.

[klonk]

Thank you Klonk - that is very much the direction I intended.

When I say that without this training Zhanzhuang is just standing - what I mean is that you will not have the muscular mechanics that the jibengong provides in order to get the benefits beyond what any untrained person might have - zhanzhuang is not a passive exercise - there is motion and dynamically opposed muscle work in zhanzhuang that you do not get or understand by just standing in posture.

Good! We're on the same page as to what you're trying to do.

BTW, the ZZ that I do has muscular recruitment and opposing forces in it. What you're describing, ZZ enthusiasts describe as 'dead standing.'

[Sprint]

Thank you Klonk - that is very much the direction I intended.

When I say that without this training Zhanzhuang is just standing - what I mean is that you will not have the muscular mechanics that the jibengong provides in order to get the benefits beyond what any untrained person might have - zhanzhuang is not a passive exercise - there is motion and dynamically opposed muscle work in zhanzhuang that you do not get or understand by just standing in posture.

As Klonk says what you are describing is dead standing. Yiquan does not use dead standing, so your comments on Yiquan are not valid. I'd like you to retract what you said about yiquan.

[kenneth fish]

I have yet to see an Yiquan teacher or practitioner who achieved skill starting just from standing. The ones whom I have met who do have a high level of skill started from other systems (Eagle Claw, Hung Gar, Xingyi, Shaolin) and had already achieved very good skill in these systems, starting from the sort of basic foundation work I have been talking about.

[Iskendar]

BTW, the ZZ that I do has muscular recruitment and opposing forces in it. What you're describing, ZZ enthusiasts describe as 'dead standing.'

Reminds me of when a ZZ practice was introduced into our general warmup. I was already doing some of the aunkai work, so there I was doing the head up ass down thing, sinking into the kua, stretching the spiral in the arms, focusing on extending the fingers, closing the back and opening the chest, pulling the shoulders down to raise the arms, and meanwhile mentally going back and forth between imagined forces pulling me in 6 directions. Halfway the 10 min. exercise I was already trembling on my legs and sweating like a pig, even in a fairly high stance, but I made it to the end anyway. Then I hear one of my younger brethren say "oh, I could do this all day long" Note that the bloke hardly could make it halfway through form at the required stance height, something with which I had no trouble whatsoever at that time. So the next time I observe him: true, he respected the external appearance of the exercise, other than that, slouched posture, no stretch of any kind visible whatsoever, shoulders tensed to lift his arms, scratched his nose two or three times, looked around constantly and once even dropped his arms to roll his shoulders and continue... So yeah, sometimes, ZZ is just standing

[kenneth fish]

Jonathon PM'd me, and I am afraid that I unintentionally offended him, for which I apologize. I should state here (as I did in my apology to him) that my motivations for starting this thread on this topic were straight forward - I have been teaching, both openly and in a closed door environment, since 1984. I also spent many years learning in both open and closed door schools in New York and Taiwan. In recent years I have had American and Chinese students and teachers show up on my door step, or had interactions in other venues, and to my shock and dismay they have lacked the very foundation skill that I have been going on about at length. I found this to be true in China this past year as well. I had taken for granted that this training was commonplace - and it is not. In China I found that it was once again only taught behind closed doors - and even then generally only outside of the more cosmopolitan environs. What was publicly available was just the shell of Chinese martial arts - the bedrock, the true foundation skill was simply not taught - and remembered only by the older generations.

In many was this material is the real core, the "secrets" of kung fu. The techniques of the various systems are just window dressing. I am truly dismayed that it is no longer the entry way into Chinese martial arts - and that it is vanishing without a trace.

[Sean]

In many was this material is the real core, the "secrets" of kung fu. The techniques of the various systems are just window dressing. I am truly dismayed that it is no longer the entry way into Chinese martial arts - and that it is vanishing without a trace.

Wouldn't the first step in stopping it from vanishing be to be open about what "it" actually is?
Maybe, you could describe in detail at least some of the exercises that you are eluding to.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Thanks for the apology Kenneth. No real offense was taken - I just thought the phrasing ended up a little bit offensive, unintentionally of course. Guess it's hard to have 30+ more years of training/teaching of many forum members and still sound down to earth with all that knowledge and experience

Since you're talking about the foundation skills but can't really explain them here in depth, maybe we'll go at it the other way around - could you, for instance, describe what are the physical qualities and/or abilities expected from someone who has undergone such training? Also, could you compare people with and without this type of training, in terms of their performance when attempting further training? On the Distillery forum, lazy_boxer have brought the nice example of just having the ability to hold oneself firmly on one leg for more than a few seconds. I am sure there are many other such examples that can be discussed.

Sean - things aren't that simple. I for one would've liked to discuss lots of IMA methods that aren't commonly discussed on the web. Still, I am obliged to keep some secrets because my teachers asked me to. As long as they're alive, I'll have to respect their wishes. I believe Kenneth must have similar issues, and worse - he might be a part of a community that wouldn't accept him had he gone around sharing everything. So I'm just saying that certain cultural norms are making things more difficult than they should be

[Franklin]

Hi Ken

I was just wondering if you had any students qualified to teach up a student in the old ways
and if any of them are actively teaching?


To me this seems like the best way that these skills will be passed on.


Franklin