The search for jibengong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The search for jibengong

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:35 pm

Yes. In fact most of my early students are capable of teaching this material. When I opened my first "public" school in Maryland some of my first students had been students of Peter Kwok. They had learned a fair amount of jibengong, and were very receptive to more. There were other students too, who were already established teachers - I taught them privately and they incorporated much of the material into their curricula.

Alas, none are in the inaccurately named Virgin Islands....
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Franklin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:44 pm

Hi Ken

haha I am not specifically looking to learn your jibengong- i have enough things to practice and develop as it is

but if i ever had the opportunity to meet you again or your students- it would be nice to chat
maybe pick your brain and see if i can trick you into spilling all the secrets
seriously though if you ever find yourself on my island while i am still living here
i would be happy to show you around and talk MA

i am glad to hear that you have students that can continue to pass down the real stuff


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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Bhassler on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:00 pm

Hi Ken,

Assuming that these foundation exercises are wonderful and that by and large no one has been exposed to them, how would a person recognize them if they did happen to find someone who was teaching them? I assume that merely the fact that something is weird and taught by an old Chinese guy is not in and of itself evidence of authenticity. Surely they have defining characteristics as to what they are, and not only as to what they are not?
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:29 pm

In the beginning they tend to focus on a single action to train a single muscle or group of muscles, are generally calisthenic (think planks or pilates), and as Andrew pointed out, seem counter intuitive. The training is progressive, both in terms of intensity and difficulty - an example would be the a deep flexor exercise done in a "pistol" stance. It is not merely the difficulty and specificity of the exercises - the corrections made as one progresses have a direct bearing on having the fine muscle control to hold, move through, and generate power with stability in stances. The exercises run the gamut from seated, standing, laying down, to moving, using weights, bricks, metal bars and other training aids.

A few of these exercises are demonstrated by Madame Fu Suyun in "Sunset in the Forbidden City". Trying to copy the movements will not get you anywhere though - you need to know what you are supposed to be doing mechanically in areas that are not easily discerned.

It may seem strange to say, but I think you will know you are getting the real stuff when you have it presented to you and you begin getting instructions about what to do inside your joints as you do them.

BTW the list that Matt "neijia_boxer" made is a good list of jiben dongzuo (basic movements) - but not jibengong.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Yuen-Ming on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:10 pm

I have direct experience of some of these gong as practiced in the early Yang curriculum, and indirect (old manuals, heard from people, seen) experience of those in other styles. Many gongs are in fact common to a lot of schools and develop qualities that can and must be used as foundation for CMA in general.
In Taijiquan some of these exercises have been modified, or created from scratch, in order to grow qualities that are specific to practices that follow in the curriculum. Most of the gongs are in fact very, very simple but when the rules are explained they become hard to do. They may require extreme mental or physical focus on a certain area, a certain muscle, breathing (or lack of it, holding the breath), tensions and they have to be practiced with full intention for a many, many (really many) repetitions. Some of the rules appear very awkward at times and against logic, but after a little practice one can understand the reasons behind them. As an example that can be understood, which is not the actual gong, imagine to be asked to do crunches without tensing the abdominal muscles for instance. And to repeat the crunch a thousand times.
Thinking about it, it is impressive what our ancestors were able to come up with through their practice and experience.
A real 'science'.

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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Simon on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:23 pm

Thanks all for this thread I can relate very much to what Ken is saying though dont know if I am on the same page with the exercises he speaks off. Coming from a Chow Gar Mantis and Silat background I learnt many exercises some general and some super secret Gung especially withing the Chow Gar. I expected to see the same in the Internal Arts here in Taiwan but saw very little of anything other than form and nice movement. So if it is here its very low profile.

This is the most impressive I found giving generously by Master He, the video sections give various exercises for different parts of the body. if you get benefit be sure to give some feedback to Master He as a courtesy.

http://www.baguaquanlessons.com/
Last edited by Simon on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby tiltpoint on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:37 am

hope i'm not showing up to the party too late to get a response...

what i was wondering is how much of these skills are transferable? i know we often hear of building a taiji/bagua/longfist/insert-your-poison body, but how many of these skills transfer between the arts? is it possible for some jibengong to be detrimental to movement in other arts? or do they serve as a common baseline?

i figure every teacher would have their preferred methods, but how much in your (anyone willing to comment, esp dr fish) opinion is that a personal preference?

any and all thoughts appreciated.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby edededed on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:07 am

This is becoming a very interesting thread - thank you Dr. Fish! :) I am very curious as to how these exercises might differ between different styles (say, xingyi vs. bagua). I am far, far from being anywhere in terms of gongfu, but I wonder if some of the exercises I have learned for xingyi and bagua constitute the "jibengong" that you are speaking of; the thing is, the few "suspicious" exercises that I have learned for either do not overlap at all... Also, they seem to be taught AFTER the basic sancaizhuang/zouquan, but I am wondering these days if I should go back and do these "secondary" exercises first...

Although many look somewhat simple, they are quite hard to do - personally lacking willpower, I think I need to give someone a whip...
Last edited by edededed on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Sprint on Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:04 am

kenneth fish wrote:I have yet to see an Yiquan teacher or practitioner who achieved skill starting just from standing.


One wonders how many you met and what your sample size is. How many in China I wonder?

kenneth fish wrote:The ones whom I have met who do have a high level of skill started from other systems (Eagle Claw, Hung Gar, Xingyi, Shaolin) and had already achieved very good skill in these systems, starting from the sort of basic foundation work I have been talking about.


This begs the question if these practitioners already had the "goods" or IP why bother with yiquan? What else could they gain?
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby klonk on Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:29 am

Well, Sprint... there is something awkward drifting into the discussion here. The trouble with secret exercises is they constitute an unknown quantity. To compare them with an openly discussed and thoroughly documented training concept doesn't get us anywhere. There is nothing on the other side of the comparison, because we don't know the secret stuff.

I know that what you are talking about is good training, because it has improved my own abilities, but I can't say anything about exercises I do not know. Apparently the discussion is hampered on the other side by Dr. Fish's misunderstanding of what people are doing in martial ZZG. Consider the humor of the situation. I have no idea what he is doing, and he seems a little sketchy on what I am doing. The opportunities for an intelligent discussion of methods, on that basis, are rather limited! -loco-

Fortunately we don't need to make a comparison, seeing that we can't. I suggest each person continue with the best training methodology he knows. If you come to know a method that really is better, do that instead, or perhaps, in addition. Dr. Fish has done us a service by alerting us that there is something going on behind that door over there. We should all thank him for that.
Last edited by klonk on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:59 am

Sprint:
FYI I have met quite a few - including direct students of Yao Zongxun in Shanghai, Beijing, and Hong Kong during the period 1980 to 1983 (although master Yao was still alive at the time he was quite ill, I never got to met him). The senior students of Yao made a point of talking about how much they had learned before studying with him - for them it was pretty much an act of conversion.

I have met a number in the States too, principally in New York and San Francisco. Again, the ones whom I thought really had skill had already become good at some other art in a traditional learning setting. (Conversely, the ones I met in S.F. who started from Yiquan, despite having a very competent and well known teacher, were, in my opinion, fooling themselves).

Again, the point of this thread is not to go on about various styles - its to make the point that there are some very fundamental practices in traditional training that have gone by the wayside, and that lacking these kinds of training is a serious stumbling block. FWIW yesterday, while teaching, I realized that the very difficulty of the exercises in a Western context, without the environmental and cultural background, makes these exercises more of an advanced training.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Dubster on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:32 am

I mean this most politely but could the people taking offence at Dr Fish start a new thread so Klonks great thread may continue...

Dr Fish, forgive me if I am speaking out of place.

I would love to hear more about these exercises to see if I already have been shown them and not appreciated them or if the last 10 years was a waste :D.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Sprint on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:43 am

Sorry Klonk for the de-rail. And Dubster I 'm sorry I get fixated on details. I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Ken this is a discussion for another time.
Last edited by Sprint on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby klonk on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:26 am

I don't see that anyone needs to apologize--unless maybe it's me. I raised the point that some people rely on ZZ for tempering and connecting the frame. As ZZ is (IMHO) the best method out there in the public domain, it seemed useful to raise it. Perhaps I should have remembered what a volatile issue this has been in the past.

I admit, belaboring the obvious perhaps, that the best method I know of is not necessarily the best one possible. To say that it is, I would need to know all possibilities. It is certain that I do not.

I can't debate Ken's approach because I don't know what it is. If we see that logical box we will be able to stay out of it. :)
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby cloudz on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:44 am

The first one is something (similar) by way of foundational basics that master He taught in Uk seminars, (amongst other things) - Duck walking. . Although come to think of it, it may well be a variation on what's shown here, where the knees don't come down like that -= you kind of walk around in a squat.

Is this part of or similar to the type of material you're speaking of Dr. Fish?
As master He has quite a lot of online clips I'll see if i can find that crouched walking I'm remembering..

At least they are starting young:


Last edited by cloudz on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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