kenneth fish wrote:I must say I am pleasantly surprised by the generally good, intelligent responses this thread has gotten, as well as the fact that we got this far before the usual "whatta ya mean my shit is fake" and "oh yeah? you think you're so smart?" and "this is what I do, and since I do it this way it must be what you are talking about" responses started.
This thread and the thread on the distillery are in no way directed towards any individuals - on the contrary, as I said, the intent is to point out a major part of information that is generally not being transmitted at the very beginning. Not only is it not being transmitted, the lack of awareness of its existence means that students do not know what it is that they lack when compared to earlier generations of Chinese martial artists - all they see is that somehow the skills and achievements are different, and they may attempt to address the problem, if they see one, by pulling in training from various disciplines that do not produce the same results.
The only way to get this training is from a teacher who is willing to impart it. This is the material that forms the true core of Chinese martial arts - and is generally closely held. Yuanming, and I think to some extent Andy, have an idea of what I am talking about.
Jonathon: I would like you to humor me if you would. Since your teacher and grandteacher are still around - approach your grandteacher and say something like "I have been doing this for a long time, but I still do not feel I have grasped the foundation and basics of the system - the work that really builds skill. Could you train me from scratch the way the old teachers taught you?" (If you can say this in Chinese even better). I believe one of several things will happen:
1. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then pat you on the back and say something like "oh no, you are doing really well - keep up the good work"
2. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then say "ok - lets see how you do" and teach you one or two very simple exercises that you will realize later are training muscles that you were not aware needed training - and will give you the strength to do "basics" properly.
3. Your Grandteacher will direct you towards your teacher, who he will give instructions to on how and what to teach you.
Regarding a Karate background: In Taiwan and China 30 or so years ago, if a student came with a solid Karate background, most Chinese teachers would consider their movement and mindset so corrupted that they would not bother trying to change it through remedial exercise.
Also: Yes, I have done MMA basic training - as long ago as 1995 and 1996. I found it less challenging then the boxing training of my youth. I have periodically revisited the issue, and while a lot has changed in terms of breadth of training, it still, in my opinion, doesn't hold up to Gleason's Gym circa 1962-65.
As far as military basic training goes - please stop whining. Both Doc and I went through shit in training (and later combat) in Vietnam and S.E. Asia that would make your hair curl. End of topic.
Sprint wrote:jonathan.bluestein wrote:For instance, and correct me if I'm wrong here - I'd assume that all modern Yi Quan training has this flaw of lacking the foundations you speak of (as they immediately start the beginner with ZZ).kenneth fish wrote:......As for your last point - bingo. Bear in mind that Yiquan was founded by someone with a lot of foundation training and training in style.kenneth fish wrote:...............Zhanzhuang assumes foundation skills. Without them, you are just standing........
kenneth fish wrote:Thank you Klonk - that is very much the direction I intended.
When I say that without this training Zhanzhuang is just standing - what I mean is that you will not have the muscular mechanics that the jibengong provides in order to get the benefits beyond what any untrained person might have - zhanzhuang is not a passive exercise - there is motion and dynamically opposed muscle work in zhanzhuang that you do not get or understand by just standing in posture.
kenneth fish wrote:Thank you Klonk - that is very much the direction I intended.
When I say that without this training Zhanzhuang is just standing - what I mean is that you will not have the muscular mechanics that the jibengong provides in order to get the benefits beyond what any untrained person might have - zhanzhuang is not a passive exercise - there is motion and dynamically opposed muscle work in zhanzhuang that you do not get or understand by just standing in posture.
klonk wrote:BTW, the ZZ that I do has muscular recruitment and opposing forces in it. What you're describing, ZZ enthusiasts describe as 'dead standing.'
In many was this material is the real core, the "secrets" of kung fu. The techniques of the various systems are just window dressing. I am truly dismayed that it is no longer the entry way into Chinese martial arts - and that it is vanishing without a trace.
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