The search for jibengong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Daniel on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:30 am

kenneth fish wrote:As for your last point - bingo. Bear in mind that Yiquan was founded by someone with a lot of foundation training and training in style. As for implications for styles - only as currently generally taught openly in the West (and among the current middle and younger generation in China). Implications for students and teachers - most definitely.


I´ve always found this an interesting blind spot among many who practice and teach. Most of the Chinese practitioners often had family style training from the age of 6-8 and up. By 16-18, they would have done a very solid amount of basics for ten years, not to mention all the subconscious learning they probably got from their environment. Thinking that a Westerner, with a completely different body, in a completely different time, can go straight into a style without long-time basics, has always seemed strange to me.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Sean on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:33 am

Here is a good video of some Tong Bei ji ben gong :


There are also some good videos of the late Mike Martello explaining (and demonstrating) the importance of basic training and stretching.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Sean on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:37 am

Or this example of some basic mantis ji ben gong :

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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:38 am

The Tongbei clip is a good example of Tongbei basic exercises - but it is not jibengong. (I know - I practice a mix of wuxing and shaoqi Tongbei. Believe me, this is not the pre-requisite training).

Jonathon - no, there are no videos that I know of. Yuan Ming was correct that there are some manuals from the Republican period that give a general idea of a few of the (many) exercises - but these are not sufficient to learn from. Andy is very much on target as far as corrections, training, and teaching - and the gap in the middle and younger generation. I should add that the foundation work is about 90% similar if not the same across the board - and the only groups I have seen teach this material openly are some Shuaijiao teachers like Wang Fengting, and Jim Uglow of Hong Gar in the U.K.

As I said before, it is not my intent to attempt to teach or compare the various exercises on this forum. It is to bring to the fore the fact that they even exist, that the corrections are both vital and closely held, and are really key to higher level skill.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Patrick on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:02 am

http://www.dhyana-fitness.at- The philosophy and practice of a healthy life
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Sprint on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:08 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:For instance, and correct me if I'm wrong here - I'd assume that all modern Yi Quan training has this flaw of lacking the foundations you speak of (as they immediately start the beginner with ZZ).

kenneth fish wrote:......As for your last point - bingo. Bear in mind that Yiquan was founded by someone with a lot of foundation training and training in style.


kenneth fish wrote:...............Zhanzhuang assumes foundation skills. Without them, you are just standing........

Ergo ZZ on it's own is just standing.....Really..? Are you sure about that? What do you mean by "just standing"

kenneth fish wrote:The problem with this approach is that it is both limited and limiting - you may very well get good at zhanzhuang (although I suspect some of the mechanics will be lacking) - but you do not attain broad and deep skills beyond that.


ZZ is a starting point. What is learned is not meant to be an end in itself, but as a part of a process that takes what is learned and applies it dynamically.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Sean on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:44 am

Ji ben gong is basic training. It consists of exercises the strengthen, loosen, coordinate and align the body in a dynamic way. Exercises that form certain body/movement qualities depending on the style being practiced.

Holding stances, practicing specific movement patterns, basic striking methods, arm and leg swinging....
Add to all this exercises using implements like iron rings and weapons (like doing lan, na and zha with the da qiang hundreds of times, for example) and you got yourself some good ji ben gong.

Or I'm I totally off track here, Dr. Fish?
Last edited by Sean on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Dmitri on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:49 am

For what very, very little that's worth, -- I don't think specificity of exercises is what really matters. I.e., with all due respect to everyone's experiences, I disagree with the "your foundational practice is fake, only Teh True Jibengong (TM) is the true jibengong!" mantra. (I may be misreading it, so I'll happily stand corrected if that's the case.) IMHO what you practice (from young age/over long period of time) matters substantially less, when compared to the fact of you practicing, -- as long as the practice has a few key attributes, most notably -- perseverance (i.e. going past the "Mommy! I just can't do another repetition! I'm gonna die!!" point), and awareness of what you're actually doing with/to your body (i.e. actively involving your mind into whatever it is you're doing). Even lifting some weights, or simple squats, pushups, jogging, etc., etc., when done properly and mindfully, and taken well past the point of "comfort", can do a LOT more for someone, compared to mindlessly and casually going, for a few minutes, through some very counter-intuitive, sophisticated, secret, authentic, esoteric, etc. exercises.

(I'm talking only about foundational practice here, not the actual IMA practice. With the actual IMA practice, what you practice matters just as much as how you practice it.)

Also... even if you didn't have ANY training in the past and have "rusty pipes", to reuse Ken's earlier metaphor, -- IMA training itself can help you fix those pipes before running water full-force through them. Won't be as easy of course, because your mind and body won't be as flexible as when you were a child, but IMHO quite doable. I've seen some people without any MA experience or any substantial "physical" background, in their very advanced age, display (after a lot of tai chi practice) some very potent "IMA attributes" in their movement/ability.
Last edited by Dmitri on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby Strange on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:31 am

what Dmitri said +1
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby somatai on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:41 am

"when one looks into the nature of things, all one uncovers is mind. When one looks into the nature of mind, all one uncovers is things" this is the problem with defining ip, jie ben gong etc.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:07 am

Daniel wrote: Most of the Chinese practitioners often had family style training from the age of 6-8 and up. By 16-18, they would have done a very solid amount of basics for ten years, not to mention all the subconscious learning they probably got from their environment. Thinking that a Westerner, with a completely different body, in a completely different time, can go straight into a style without long-time basics, has always seemed strange to me.


I wish that we had been taught some of the same basic, fundamental stuff when we were growing up: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU4MzI0NDgw.html

But the fact is that we were not. So we just have to catch-up with certain things.

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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:10 am

Dmitri - LOL @ "your Jibengong is fake!" ;D
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby DaDa on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:38 am

I think I need to clarify my definition to JiBengGong regarding my previous post.

Before each training, about 30-1 hr would be devoted to stretching, stretching, warming up.
That was all warm-up to me.

Holding stances, basic strikes, basic kicks and basic stepping are what I know as JiBengGong.

Adv skills is mixing basic punches,kicks, and stepping into specific combos.

My apologies for the mix up
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:18 am

I must say I am pleasantly surprised by the generally good, intelligent responses this thread has gotten, as well as the fact that we got this far before the usual "whatta ya mean my shit is fake" and "oh yeah? you think you're so smart?" and "this is what I do, and since I do it this way it must be what you are talking about" responses started.

This thread and the thread on the distillery are in no way directed towards any individuals - on the contrary, as I said, the intent is to point out a major part of information that is generally not being transmitted at the very beginning. Not only is it not being transmitted, the lack of awareness of its existence means that students do not know what it is that they lack when compared to earlier generations of Chinese martial artists - all they see is that somehow the skills and achievements are different, and they may attempt to address the problem, if they see one, by pulling in training from various disciplines that do not produce the same results.

The only way to get this training is from a teacher who is willing to impart it. This is the material that forms the true core of Chinese martial arts - and is generally closely held. Yuanming, and I think to some extent Andy, have an idea of what I am talking about.

Jonathon: I would like you to humor me if you would. Since your teacher and grandteacher are still around - approach your grandteacher and say something like "I have been doing this for a long time, but I still do not feel I have grasped the foundation and basics of the system - the work that really builds skill. Could you train me from scratch the way the old teachers taught you?" (If you can say this in Chinese even better). I believe one of several things will happen:
1. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then pat you on the back and say something like "oh no, you are doing really well - keep up the good work"
2. Your Grandteacher will look at you funny, hesitate, then say "ok - lets see how you do" and teach you one or two very simple exercises that you will realize later are training muscles that you were not aware needed training - and will give you the strength to do "basics" properly.
3. Your Grandteacher will direct you towards your teacher, who he will give instructions to on how and what to teach you.

Regarding a Karate background: In Taiwan and China 30 or so years ago, if a student came with a solid Karate background, most Chinese teachers would consider their movement and mindset so corrupted that they would not bother trying to change it through remedial exercise.

Also: Yes, I have done MMA basic training - as long ago as 1995 and 1996. I found it less challenging then the boxing training of my youth. I have periodically revisited the issue, and while a lot has changed in terms of breadth of training, it still, in my opinion, doesn't hold up to Gleason's Gym circa 1962-65.

As far as military basic training goes - please stop whining. Both Doc and I went through shit in training (and later combat) in Vietnam and S.E. Asia that would make your hair curl. End of topic.
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Re: The search for jibengong

Postby neijia_boxer on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:22 am

These seem to have helped me tremendously with my Internal arts training: I had a teacher from Shanghai Jingwu, Zhou Jianhua(Chin Woo) and two others, one from Mizung Lohan style (under Alex Kwok/Nick Scrima), another in college from Shaolin Wu Xing ba fa (Ching Ching Fang's student Chow in Richmond Va) and a Traditional Yang teacher who was also a famous Wushu teacher (He Weiqi). these basics are common to all of them.

Common Jibegong in Long Fist: Chin Woo, Mizung Lohan, Shaolin Longfist, and even wushu training: good for any player.

1. Loosen neck, ankles and wrist.
2. Arm/shoulder circles, Waist circles, hip circles, knee circles. (variety of waist turning drills)
3. Heel stretch
4. Squat
5. Various stretches: wall stretches, floor stretches, partner stretches.
a. Single leg
b. Double leg
c. Splits (Chinese and regular)
d. Scales
e. etc.

Stance work stationary:

6. Horse stance (with staff on legs)
7. Bow stance and kneeling stance (knee almost touch ground)
8. Pistols as empty stance warm up
9. Empty stance
10. Drop stance
11. Balance stance
12. Half sitting stance
13. Full sitting stance

Stance work moving
14. Horse stance punching: variety including: horse stance to bow stance, horse stance to half sitting, horse stance to kneeling stance, etc.
15. Bow stance punching
16. Drop stance to bow stance to balance stance drill- low to high leg work.
17. Moving half sitting stance.
18. Combination of stances.

Kicking basics
19. Front stretch kick
20. Inside stretch kick
21. Outside stretch kick
22. Side stretch kick
23. Side kick (low, medium, high)
24. Chinese round kick (low , medium, high)
25. Inside and outside kick combines
26. Slap kick
27. Double slap kick
28. Shovel kick
29. Back kick
30. Low front sweep (180) degree
31. Low back sweep (360) degree
32. Front snap kick (Tan tuei)
33. Combined front snap kick and side kick
34. Circle arm slap kick

Acrobatic stuff- rolling, tiger rolls, back rolls, front falls, back falls, dragon spins up, tornado fall, side kick fall.
front jumps, 360 jumps to left, 360 jumps to right.
35. Front jump kick
36. Tornado kick
37. Lotus kick
38. Butterfly kick
39. Cartwheels and Aerial (cartwheel no hands)


Strength conditioning:

1. Jump and land in Horse stance
2. Wall sits (sit in horse stance back to wall)
3. V-ups
4. Sit ups
5. Push ups
6. Burpies
7. Squat kicks
8. Outside kick, 180 degree inside kick, to bow stance palm strike hold (repeat 20 times)
9. Leg raises (50)
10. Back extensions
11. Bridges (30 sec holds)
Last edited by neijia_boxer on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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