Realistic Combat Applications of IP

[Wanderingdragon]

I call it the gravitational pull of Xing I , good description of the use of weight while also describing the closing and opening of bridge control. Also, from the other side, the sensitivity of these internal arts should allow your opponent to feel the weight and just drop it, remove the left arm completely, allowing him to step back to cover the on coming strike. This is the speed of change necessary for fighting and why I say speed is in sensitivity, if one drops the weight of the bridging arm with the right timing, this could affect the aggressors balance and structure. Split seconds, hairs

[Wanderingdragon]

The slightest motion can creategreat opportunity

[jjy5016]

"gravitational pull of Xing I", I like that. But with a good strong frame and luo xuan jing (spiraling, or silk reeling force) it works without gravity as in upwards and sidewards. This is a specialty of hsing yi. Grasping onto a point and controlling the situation from there.

Even if the opponent feels the weight and removes his arm he still gets hit. That's the beauty of the method.

[Wanderingdragon]

Absolutely true, hence step back and cover, the reality of Xing I training is the immediate change and control. On both sides we are talking about control from the center, therein lies the foot work, and the continuation you speak of, is the result of whole body movement, none of it works without understanding the center, the essence of internal. Once you recognize your own center you are able to recognize the same in your opponent, again two players at the same level, speed is in sensitivity.

[Wanderingdragon]

I recognize now, the eau di vie is still coming through the still in drips, harder for some to release the dregs with out extreme temps, in making cognac it is known that these are usually the bitter essences that may not be used in creating the very finest Cognac.

[jjy5016]

Well I guess it's natural for individuals to not want to share certain things. As I see it a lot of (most) IP applications just won't work if one doesn't have the skills. In my experiences muscular force works to the point that as long as the opposing force is not equal to or greater than one applying the technique it can work. Ip techniques need to work on someone bigger and stronger than the person using them. I always test a technique slowly at first. Speed tends to hide mistakes or lack of skill in a lot of cases. If it works slow and without much effort against someone bigger than me (just about every adult male) then I'm confident in the technique. If I have to struggle at all it means that I'm not doing something right and / or it just isn't a good technique for me. Actually there's a lot more to it but this is just what I use as my own criteria.

[Chris McKinley]

jjy,

Great posts! I have one technical question for you. After you have made contact with his incoming left punch with your right forearm, you said you drill clockwise with your right forearm. Are you drilling clockwise backward (so as to connect with his center and pull him off-balance to your right side) before you return fire, or are you drilling clockwise forward (so as to blend with his incoming punch trajectory and roll his punching arm further under your own while your right punch simultaneously counter-fires)? Both can work is why I ask.

[jjy5016]

jjy,

Great posts! I have one technical question for you. After you have made contact with his incoming left punch with your right forearm, you said you drill clockwise with your right forearm. Are you drilling clockwise backward (so as to connect with his center and pull him off-balance to your right side) before you return fire, or are you drilling clockwise forward (so as to blend with his incoming punch trajectory and roll his punching arm further under your own while your right punch simultaneously counter-fires)? Both can work is why I ask.

In this instance it would be the latter. My body will be following the left lead foot so it will be rotating counterclockwise as it pulls forward onto the front foot and the right forearm drills clockwise.

[Chris McKinley]

Gotcha, thanks.

[Wanderingdragon]

"gravitational pull of Xing I", I like that. But with a good strong frame and luo xuan jing (spiraling, or silk reeling force) it works without gravity as in upwards and sidewards. This is a specialty of hsing yi. Grasping onto a point and controlling the situation from there.

Even if the opponent feels the weight and removes his arm he still gets hit. That's the beauty of the method.

Every which way but loose

[Michael]

jjy,

Great posts! I have one technical question for you. After you have made contact with his incoming left punch with your right forearm, you said you drill clockwise with your right forearm. Are you drilling clockwise backward (so as to connect with his center and pull him off-balance to your right side) before you return fire, or are you drilling clockwise forward (so as to blend with his incoming punch trajectory and roll his punching arm further under your own while your right punch simultaneously counter-fires)? Both can work is why I ask.

In this instance it would be the latter. My body will be following the left lead foot so it will be rotating counterclockwise as it pulls forward onto the front foot and the right forearm drills clockwise.

Maybe I have the wrong perspective, but I am thinking of "your" perspective as you step forward with your left foot and make contact with your right forearm with his left arm. The clock face is on your opponent, yes?

Is your right forearm under or over the opponent's left arm? I assume from your clockwise drilling it must be under, but possibly since I have no experience with XY, I don't quite know the obvious postures involved. Maybe "clockwise drilling" does not have the diameter I imagine of at least a fist's width. Every way I imagine it with your forearm over his arm, your right fist is making a counter-clockwise circle.

Okay, now I'm really curious how this works. Next time I see my TJQ teacher, I'm going to have to ask him some XY questions.

If this is too much to explain to someone who has never really seen XY, don't spend too much time in the response. I am just curious, if you know what I mean.

[jjy5016]

Hello Michael,

Yes I'm speaking as if the clock is facing me.

The opponent's arm is under mine in this scenario. I want to use the connection with his arm, my own weight and the contact point to pull him forward & into my fist. Done right it will pull him down and towards me.

It is my understanding that the point thing is a hsing yi exclusive. It might show up in taiji if the teacher studied hsing yi also.

I am visiting a taiji/hsing yi/hop gar grandmaster this weekend and last night he was giving a taji application demonstration. He hit the top inside of the attacker's right forearm with his right forearm using the same type of point hitting and grasping with the spin of the forearm and then hit back in the opposite direction to the attacker's face with the arm that he hit the opponent with. Kind of like a very small circle lu and then chi (rollback and press) from Yang taiji.

[Michael]

Thanks, jjy. Now I understand.

[Iskendar]

I think the key to making IMA applications realistic is to not rely on a large dictionary of "if he does this, I do that" rules, but to learn how to solve a large range of problems with a single technique. This way the multiple "if he does this" are reduced from totally different situations to just being different timings or angles of your movement, and the fun thing is: you don't need to know/choose the correct timing for that particular attack, the timing is just when it intersects with your movement.
This way techniques become a lot more automatic and non-conscious.
The key is to research this extensively in training, and to do this on all (or at least most) of the techniques you learn. Which means that less is more in this case. Also, this is where the IP material obviously shines: if all your movements can be described as different angulations of a limited set of spiral movements, the reduction is even greater.
IMHO, YMMV...

[Chris McKinley]

I think the key to making IMA applications realistic is to not rely on a large dictionary of "if he does this, I do that" rules, but to learn how to solve a large range of problems with a single technique. This way the multiple "if he does this" are reduced from totally different situations to just being different timings or angles of your movement, and the fun thing is: you don't need to know/choose the correct timing for that particular attack, the timing is just when it intersects with your movement.
This way techniques become a lot more automatic and non-conscious.

I agree with this very much. In fact, it's the reasoning I gave back when we were first discussing what it might be like if neijia guys trained in a way similar to boxers, who do that very thing. That discussion then became the impetus for my starting my combatives class a few years back. There ultimately is no substitute for practicing to use your material in context against a resisting opponent. No amount of IP, jibengong, theorizing or intellectual understanding will ever make a significant difference in that regard without lots of time spent contextualizing the skill.