the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

This discussion is on the purpose of the horse stance, this includes:
1. The functionality of horse stance.
2. The muscle groups that serves such function.
3. Common injuries and how do we avoid them.

All welcome. And thank your contribution in advance.

Over

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/hejinghan-bagua/article?mid=156&prev=158&next=63&l=f&fid=5

Good article on Horse Stance here, its a pity the images are missing as they are interesting comparisons.

cheers
chris

Hi Middleway,

I am more interested in individual opinion on this.
And think we all do. Thanks for Master He valuable insight here, I will try to post up!

Cheers,

Over

Haven't read the article but the horse stance is a functional fighting stance. It is very useful against a larger, longer opponent. It minimizes your profile and increases your reach. Downside is the back hand and leg are much farther away so it is a trade off. You can also cover distance very quickly by skipping or cross stepping forward or back.

As far as muscles my inner thighs get the most work in a good horse stance, but we do a wide stance and not a narrow one.

Knee injuries could occur if you let your knees track a different direction than your toes.

One of the most common complaints among people who are able to hold mabu for long periods of time is lateral or medial knee ligament strain and strain of the quadriceps tendon along the superior border of the patella, or kneecap. This is due to them judging their ability to hold the position based on what their leg strength will endure. This is erroneous. The hips must be able to fully articulate without resulting in spasm when held in that position over time, which results in the patellar strain, and likewise, the abductors/adductors must be able to endure the position without spasming, which causes the lateral/medial strain.

Thanks guys, good job!
Any more?

Over

I stand in the northern horse stance holding feet shoulder with apart for more than an hour every morning. I do not hold it with the tops of my thighs parallel to the ground as some southern stylists do because my purpose isn't to develop the muscles in my legs. The muscles do get toned but do not seem to be getting any more of a workout than when I walk from the subway to my office.

My standing is done in such a way that the upper and lower leg are twisting in opposite directions making use of the tendons and connective tissues and using that for support and building strength in the legs. The purpose of this type of stance training is to be able to clamp onto the ground and use that connection when issuing force similar to the way a soldier on horseback would wrap his legs around the midsection of the animal in order to use its weight, momentum and strength when issuing force through a spear.

Knees held over the outside edges of the feet allow me to stand with them anywhere from three to six inches past my toes with no injuries or knee problems. Been doing it in this manner for almost ten years and have no problems.

I am not great at Mabu but in my opinion there should not be pressure on the knees if the arch and the upward force is in operation. Master He talks about this so do the Aunkai guys in their exercises. Their should be a force activated from the pulling on the inside of the legs up into the groin. This upward force takes pressure off the knees with the sink into the Kua and supports the torso.

I use it as an exercise not as a posture for combat.

RE: Common injuries
I think mabu (and other Northern stance training) is designed to prevent injuries. Stance training applies no extra weight to the body, and is a gradual process - ie you start holding mabu for a few seconds, then build up to minutes.

It is my personal belief that many TKD peeps and Karateka suffer lower body injuries because they don't do the kind of stance training CMA do. There again, it may simply be because TKD and Karate tend to have heavier kicking regimes than most CMA.

Like others, I see it as more of an exercise than a combative posture. If you are going to use it as a stance, it would only be for a second or so. In combat, stances are higher and more mobile than in training.

It's a neutral position to start investigating weight shifting and the associated mechanics of your style. It's easier to work on small details of alignment when all things are equal on both sides and you are not moving. As you progress, you can add more details, slowly building your foundation.

Once you get the right feeling, and you have a certain degree of development without hurting yourself, you can carry that over to other stances and eventually moving. Horse stance must have a place in a progression of training methods reaching some defined goal. That's a statement and a question, I guess.

kreese wrote:Once you get the right feeling, and you have a certain degree of development without hurting yourself, you can carry that over to other stances and eventually moving. .

Any MA where you have to "work up to" moving is flawed.

Chris McKinley wrote:One of the most common complaints among people who are able to hold mabu for long periods of time is lateral or medial knee ligament strain and strain of the quadriceps tendon along the superior border of the patella, or kneecap. This is due to them judging their ability to hold the position based on what their leg strength will endure. This is erroneous. The hips must be able to fully articulate without resulting in spasm when held in that position over time, which results in the patellar strain, and likewise, the abductors/adductors must be able to endure the position without spasming, which causes the lateral/medial strain.

When I was first shown stance work we received no instruction or training in working the hips, looking back it all seems to be as you say, all based on leg strength. Consquently I developed seriously creaky knees which took a few years working with better training methods to improve - but even now I cringe at the thought of low stances and static postures. My legs seems just as strong though.

I agree with Liokault about working up to moving too. Start with movement. Static work has a place IMO for posture and psyche testing but only as a small part of the training

Mabu, as with all stance work, as with all jibengong and shen fa work, has its place, but that place should never be mistaken for actual combat skill nor placed above the latter in priority. Combat skill exists without any jibengong whatsoever, even that level of combat skill that can easily defeat those who do make jibengong a regular part of their practice. Further, no amount of jibengong will impart combat skill by itself. By definition, for the purposes of combat, this makes jibengong an ancillary support activity to combat skill. Too many CMA stylists have lost the plot on this fact, sometimes even to the complete exclusion of combat skills altogether.

Never let tradition replace thought. Viable combat skill coupled with rigorous and safe ancillary support training produces the most effective results, and always has. Any other configuration of the two does not. End of story.

liokault wrote:

kreese wrote:Once you get the right feeling, and you have a certain degree of development without hurting yourself, you can carry that over to other stances and eventually moving. .

Any MA where you have to "work up to" moving is flawed.

Squats are a type of horse stance in my book, and everyone is different. Some need really basic stuff, some don't. Nobody needs to learn MA at all, by your logic.

In short, not everyone is you. Surprise. You are completely self-focused, yet you feel the need to interact with others. At least be consistent and pick one. Go away or act like a properly socialized human being. Your response will predictably be some more antisocial stuff. Good for you.

kreese wrote:
Squats are a type of horse stance in my book, and everyone is different. Some need really basic stuff, some don't. Nobody needs to learn MA at all, by your logic.

In short, not everyone is you. Surprise. You are completely self-focused, yet you feel the need to interact with others. At least be consistent and pick one. Go away or act like a properly socialized human being. Your response will predictably be some more antisocial stuff. Good for you.

Calm down, maybe try some Tai Chi, I hear its good for relaxing.....I can recomend a teacher.

Chris McKinley wrote:Mabu, as with all stance work, as with all jibengong and shen fa work, has its place, but that place should never be mistaken for actual combat skill nor placed above the latter in priority.

I completely agree with this.