Su Dong Chen

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Su Dong Chen

Postby Muad'dib on Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:08 am

Well, I just got back a while ago after visiting Su's class. (what is his family name, btw? I just called him sensei the whole time).

Here is my take:

As people have often stated, Su know's his stuff in a combat way. His body itself is a testament to his fighting background. Basically every inch of his exposed flesh showed major scars, broken fingers, burns, stabs, you name it. His hand speed and foot speed are also very good. Moreover, despite the unorthodox theories he espouses, it is clear when he executes a throw that he draws from solidly established basics, stance fundamentals, etc. As stated, he also hits very hard, though no harder than several other IMA masters I've met (or studied under). I'm sure any of them could hit harder, but that would likely result in injury. He definitely did not hesitate to smack or dump his students on their ass as a demonstration either.

Su's theory/application of IMA fighting structure very much conforms to what/how I would personally like to apply my own IMA. It's this more than anything that drew me to visit his class after viewing his clips on the net. This is the part where I was mildly disappointed. Su talks heavily about theory, and demonstrates it as well, but... Well, I don't think his students are getting it. I don't think it's Su's fault in anyway. It's more that he's trying to teach people to play jazz when they still are stuck on practicing their scales. Maybe its my arrogance, but he would show the students some movements to play with, and they would rote follow them. It was my impression that the moves/tactics were meant to be building blocks from which to create their own extemporaneous movements. (BTW, much of his theory seemed to be very in line with some of the things that Tadzio once discussed in a thread regarding xing-yi push hands.)

The other thing is that as with many well known teachers, he did not discuss basics such as power generation, etc, preferring to discuss/demo higher level skills. (Again, in his defense, I only watched one class.) He downplayed stance practice for example, but it ran contrary to his own use of orthodox stance/movements when executing throws. He did lead the class through the 5 fists, but correction of glaringly poor form even to my inexperienced eye was lacking (then again, this is also common with many of the CMA teacher's I've seen, generally).

The final take away, all the negatives above considered, is that if it didn't take me an hour to get there and an hour back, on the weekend, I'd probably study with him. I think I have a sufficient base in the internal side to work with, and merely having his students available as practice dummies would be beneficial, let alone his general tactical knowledge being invaluable (if I can metabolize it on my own.) Again, because his methods so clearly mirror how I would "like" to be able to use my IMA, and how he clearly "can" use his, this is a huge draw for me.

Furthermore, he seems like a pretty nice guy.

Sorry if this rambled, it was just a stream of conscience series of impressions.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby edededed on Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:42 am

Cool. :)

(His surname is "Su" - in pinyin would be "Su Dongcheng.")
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby Dmitri on Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:35 am

Thanks for sharing Dan. 8-)
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby fisherman on Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:49 am

Interesting. Thank you for posing your experience. Do you think that you will return for more classes?
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby kreese on Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:01 am

The teacher can only show and hope that the student gets it. I learned early on when teaching to not judge how much the student got. That was not my responsibility. I just showed what to do and how to practice it to the best of my abilitiy and prayed the student practiced. Like ever.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby count on Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:08 am

Sorry, I wasn't clear whether you watched or participated. Having been to a few of Mr. Su's classes, I wondered how it's going for him in Japan, right?

A few things I noticed about his teaching application of power generation are his ability to put theory into a modern context and physically demonstrate the differences between correct application and un-refined power.

He also had some unique methods for developing practical power through boards and sand bags etc.

Will you be going back and attending classes? It's probably worth it if he is one of your learning options, to pursue his stuff.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby C.J.Wang on Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:40 am

Zhong_Kui wrote: Su talks heavily about theory, and demonstrates it as well, but... Well, I don't think his students are getting it. I don't think it's Su's fault in anyway. It's more that he's trying to teach people to play jazz when they still are stuck on practicing their scales. Maybe its my arrogance, but he would show the students some movements to play with, and they would rote follow them.


Perhaps the class you observed was meant for beginners and intermediate students?

It's been my experience that even the most gifted of teachers usually only have a small handful of students who really "got it." And oftentimes the advanced indoor disciples do not train with regular students.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby Muad'dib on Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:53 pm

Count/CJ:

As I said, I only observed this class and I tried (unsuccessfully) to make it clear that I was aware that a single class alone is not the basis for forming a full opinion. I respect Su's individual ability, and like Kreese said, I know that you can't always judge a teacher by their students (though sometimes you can, because there's a line between having students who just can't get it, and having students who don't get it because of the teacher.) Here I believe I thought it was the former. (Though as I said, this may be arrogance on my part)

Count, Su seems to be doing well, though I didn't have time to have a long conversation with him. Also he speaks Japanese damn fast. :)
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby internalenthusiast on Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:11 pm

hi Zhong_Kui,

i'm glad you were able to meet up with su dong chen.

i think he's a generous man, a good teacher, and an excellent MAist. as your post implies, i think his teachings are best for someone who has a background already. some IMA training which acts as an "entry point" to what he has to offer.

IMO, he's kinda like "graduate school". which is to say if one has skills already, one is likely to take away more, and appreciate more the conceptual things he has to offer. and have the ability to execute (at least in some manner) what he asks you to do.

i know i would have been completely lost if i hadn't had a background already, and in addition, already questioned and investigated the assumptions of that background.

at the same time, if one has an entry point, i think his exercises, and movement, can be inspirational. kind of like watching/hearing a musical virtuoso, and learning from that.

your metaphor of jazz seems to me right on.

i can't really comment on your statement about his students not getting it, as i wasn't there. i'd just refer to my above statement, about having some background. "a 'school' is an entry point to MA".

i didn't study with him as long as i wanted to, because he moved away. but i know i will always recognize him as someone who helped open my mind. and i'd gladly study with him again.

i have very high admiration for him as a teacher; and the highest admiration for him as a practitioner. the more one can bring to him, the more he can teach you.

i also really like him as a person. ;)

happy trails... :)

ps: the only thing i'd add is: if you just watched, then go ahead and taste. i think i learned a lot from feeling from su dong chen. even if you watch, and have a good eye, feeling is much better! it's true with any teacher, imo, but perhaps especially so in this instance.

if you have questions: PM me. ;)
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby kreese on Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:29 pm

Alls I can say is that I hope Zhong Kui gets the chance to go, even if it is only once a month. The density of information shown by a high-level martial artist like Mr. Su is tremendous. The kind of free-fighting stuff he shows is what everyone laments is missing in IMA. Viva le nouveau xingyiquan!
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby nianfong on Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:34 pm

cool, dan. I'm glad you got to see him. I haven't gotten to yet... dammit. I'm jealous :)

an hour each way is not so bad. I do that once a week to cupertino pretty much. my shixiong drives from santa rosa to cupertino (about 2 hrs+) every week to teach class.

Since you seem to be seriously considering learning from him, might I suggest trying to contact Matt Irvin? I have an e-mail addy for Matt which he checks occasionally. I'll try to get a better e-mail from him if you want to talk to him.


-Fong
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby count on Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:50 am

Dude,

You can't tell anything until you feel yourself lifted effortlessly over that mans head, and set down on the ground, light as a feather or hard as a rock, your choice.

In a sense, I agree with you, but there is a lot you can tell just by looking at how the students move.

For me, the language factor, the cost, and maybe personality might be drawbacks. But not driving 1 hour, even each way. I did that for decades.

I only had the opportunities to learn from him a few times. At workshops and a couple classes. But to get a fraction of what Su has to offer is worth it.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby Josealb on Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:58 am

Count makes allot of sense. Even if a teacher's ability to pass on his skills is limited, if hes good enough, a fraction of it is worth gold to any student.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby Muad'dib on Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:28 am

You can't tell anything until you feel yourself lifted effortlessly over that mans head, and set down on the ground, light as a feather or hard as a rock, your choice.


What is that going to teach me exactly?

I've met other teachers as with capacity similar to Su's, so that is not a factor for me. I had one person simply tap my leg with their shin, and I had muscle spasms and severe cramps for a week. I know another person who could tell every major bone break, muscle tear and ligament strain I'd had in my life just by looking at me. Another bruised my arm and causes brutal pain just by touching, not tapping, touching me. What impresses me about Su is not his "strength", it's his shenfa and for me effectively passing on that to students is the key. So since you studied with him a few times, let me ask how well you absorbed his fighting techniques?

As for the time, in the past I travelled the same distance to study, but I am not in that place now. I have different commitments, different responsibilities, and frankly MA is no longer a top priority for me at all.
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Re: Su Dong Chen

Postby JessOBrien on Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:23 am

Right on Dan, glad you got to check out Mr. Su! From my short visit with him, I could tell he is someone well worth learning from, even only in small bits.

Training these days with kids and responsibilities is a much different game than it used to be. I'm content to do a little each day, and see good teachers when I can.

Take care,

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