Chinese Broadsword

[Waterway]

Hello All,

My Taijiquan teachers are beginning to run a monthly Dao (Chinese Broadsword class). They sent me some info on it (they don't run classes over the August/early September) and said it would help with Taijiquan.

Now, I trust both my teachers, but I was wondering how exactly Chinese Broadsword study helps with Taijiquan? I am not cynical about the matter, merely curious!

I am going to take the class as it runs on a Saturday which suits my schedule. I will ask my teachers how it relates to Taijiquan then. In the meantime though, does anyone have any info/thoughts on Chinese Broadsword study and its relation to Taijiquan?

As always, thanks for any input!

[qiphlow]

any weapons practice will help you learn how to move from the hips, and will also help with footwork.

[Bao]

Now, I trust both my teachers, but I was wondering how exactly Chinese Broadsword study helps with Taijiquan? I am not cynical about the matter, merely curious!

Because the Dao is one of the dumb weapons of CMA and the only dumb weapon of Taijiquan. You make every move so clear and evident that it is almost impossible to miss a turn or twist. So it's a kind of "yang large frame-weaponry". An excellent weapon for beginners. My teacher said right after he had taught us the dao - "now when you understand it, you can throw it away and spend your time practicing more important things". It is good to learn and practice, but you should also understand it's limitations according to taiji principles. I heard that there were originally no dao/sabre/broadsword in taijiquan and that it was very late "invention". I don't know if that's true, but that could explain some about why everyone is teaching different names of the postures of dao forms.

[Ron Panunto]

It is good to learn and practice, but you should also understand it's limitations according to taiji principles. I heard that there were originally no dao/sabre/broadsword in taijiquan and that it was very late "invention". I don't know if that's true, but that could explain some about why everyone is teaching different names of the postures of dao forms.

On the contrary Bao. Chen Wanting developed taijiquan based on the movements of his favorite weapon, the long handled broadsword (or kwandao). The single and double broadsword routines were part of the original curriculum of Chen taiji. The broadsword routines teach you how to manipulate and control momentum with your waist and legs since broadswords were typically heavy weapons. When you learn how to guide the momentum of the knife then you can easily guide the momentum (neutralize) a barehand attack.

[Ron Panunto]

Because the Dao is one of the dumb weapons of CMA and the only dumb weapon of Taijiquan.

Bao, please explain - what is a "dumb" weapon ? Maybe you mean that the weapon wielder is stupid?

[GrahamB]

I am going to take the class as it runs on a Saturday which suits my schedule. I will ask my teachers how it relates to Taijiquan then. In the meantime though, does anyone have any info/thoughts on Chinese Broadsword study and its relation to Taijiquan?

As always, thanks for any input!

Take allowance for the fact that I am a cynical Brit, but I don't think it will help you at all in relation to Taijiquan. It's just another form to learn, another class to take, more money to spend (sword + lessons) and something new to keep you busy for a year while you learn the sequence. However, if you enjoy learning form routines and posturing about with a sword, then you'll love it. Different horses for different courses, I guess. The question is "Why do you learn Taijiquan? What are you hoping to get out of it?"

If you want to learn to use the broadsword then (unless your teachers are an exception to the norm in Tai Chi) you're better off tracking down a martial art or teacher of said arts which actually practice practical weapons drills.

My (undoubtedly unpopular) 2 cents

[Bao]

On the contrary Bao. Chen Wanting developed taijiquan based on the movements of his favorite weapon, the long handled broadsword (or kwandao). The single and double broadsword routines were part of the original curriculum of Chen taiji.

Sorry pal, (edit: I know that many people will laugh at me now, or think that I am stupid . . ) but I don't believe in that myth for a second. First, Taijiquan didn't start with CWT. Chenquan started with him, but most principles, postures etc. are older than him. Second, if that was true, the first and most important weapon in Chen style would always be the guandao. There are to many logical flaws in that story for me to accept. A Chinese scholar who wrote much about taijiquan and CMA in the 60s and 70s, Dr. Wilaim C.Hu, went through and read all books and records from Chenjiagou and could find nothing about kwandaos. Nor could he find anything about Chen style and staffs, which Chen stylists also has claimed was a speciality weapon of the Chenjiagou. So there are no real proofs that Chen Wanting developed his style from the guandao. But if you can serve me one . . .

When you learn how to guide the momentum of the knife then you can easily guide the momentum (neutralize) a barehand attack.

That is another logic I have a little bit hard to grasp. Taijiquan barehanded skill is based on sensitivity. Sensitivity is on the skin and you need to touch with the skin. If you speak about leverage and full body movement, then the staff is a much more important tool.

Bao, please explain - what is a "dumb" weapon ? Maybe you mean that the weapon wielder is stupid?

No, I meant just what I said. The Dao is used with big, wide, evident "crude" moves. The dao was a weapon you usually put in the hands of foot soldiers, and even peasants. It was easy to use and not much skill was needed to be able to use it at a basic level. It could be used as an axe - chop - chop - which was not something you should do with the double edged jian. To make some sincere damage and wield that weapon well, you actually needed some practice. The kwandao was used by higher rank soldiers, but was never proved to be a good weapon on the battlefield, and only a few know how to use it well. Usually the spear was prefered before the guandao. And let's not talk about the big dao, the bagua dadao, which was invented long after guns took over the battlefield, and therefore was never proved to be useful (or in actual use) in any battle.

[middleway]

I can talk from the experience of training Daito Ryu and Itto ryu together.

I found the correct use of a weapon translated directly and beneficially to the empty hand work.

With a weapon you work finer lines, you work tighter angles etc ... this is not as obvious in Empty hand work but is blatantly obvious in weapons work ... especially after a few whacks on the wrists etc! You soon tighten up your lines and recognise the opponents lines of attack more clearly. When you then go back to empty hand your lines are tighter and your ability to recognise lines of attack is much more advanced.

If your talking about sword forms ... maybe worth it just for development or for Fun!

If your talking about learning good solid application with Dao or any weapon .... DEFINITELY worth it! to tighten up your H2H game.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers
Chris

[Ian]

IMO, if you get the chance to

-move a sharp, heavy object around your body (don't let the fuzz catch you doing this!)
-sword-spar with your mates
-spend more time on drills and principles of movement rather than specific techniques

it'll almost certainly help you with your fighting.

But if you're just faffing around with a piece of tinsel and a 108-step form, don't waste your time.

[JoseFreitas]

There are a bunch of solid reasons why the Taiji saber form is a good thing to learn:

1. It is a cool weapon and the form is quite beautiful, in an austere, simple kind of way.

2. It can be used by Taiji practitioners as a "basic gongfu" form, that will develop the body in a somewhat more forceful and challenging way, which will improve your leg strength, your upper torso power and ability to twist and transmit force. Basically, it's good exercise from the point of view of a a Taiji practitioner. This may not apply so much to you, if you have a consistent exercise program and if you challenge yourself a lot with other stuff, but for the average Taiji player, this is the closest they will ever come to doing "free weight" training to strengthen their body, especially if they use a well balanced, realistic weight saber.

3. I find that the skill developed with the broadsword more easily translates to wielding other weapons, such as sticks or saber or katanas than the skill developed in the straight sword. The broadsword's abilities, being less sophisticated, have more universal application to other practices.

Finally, learning new forms is fun, and mentally challenging, and you should do it! 'Nuff said!!

Best

[Franklin]

taiji weapons work different parts of the body

the emphasis of the taiji broadsword is the waist

some of the postures in the form have a direct correlation to postures in the empty hand form
giving you insights into the power generation in those postures as well as to condition the parts necessary for the power generation

wielding the broadsword will strengthen the wrist and also the connection in the entire body if done correctly- as in internal arts you want to use the body to move the weapon

i would say that in a nutshell those are the two main reasons that the broadsword practice will improve you emptyhand work in taiji

of course on top of that the broadsword is a weapon for fighting- if you teacher can show you, then this is also very interesting as there are many entries that rely not on brute force but the deflection and sticking aspects of taiji but only now with a heavy weapon that but be turned and twisted with the whole body-
also there is the direct hacking methods (mostly from wrapping the body with the dao)- this can sometimes help to get you out of the mode that taiji is only about sticking and yielding- as with the dao when you hack you hack...

my taiji teacher said that you can not say you understand taiji if you did not learn the whole curriculum


Franklin

[Michael Babin]

I personally don't care much for the Yang-style broadsword/knife form after having learned three versions over the decades of my taiji involvement; but not because I don't like the dao as a weapon. Rather, I don't like the convoluted nature of some of the solo form moves which make those postures challenging to do in solo practice but risky to do against a competent opponent [I.e., sticking your hand out slightly ahead of the weapon as in "Shoot the Goose"].

However, I would suggest to WATERWAY that the biggest problem with learning the broadsword would be only having a class dedicated to the weapon once a month; that might be fine for eventually learning a solo form but doesn't leave any room for building skill with partners under supervision. Now if you already know how to use a broadsword ... maybe.

As to the origin of the broadsword set, I tend to believe what I have been told by several Chinese-taught teachers that the original Yang broadsword solo set was actually created by the late Fu Zhong-wen who was apparently already skilled with that weapon before taking up taiji. As to truth in objective historical terms? It's pretty hard to see which is the original or any form or training methods these days with so many respected Yang teachers claiming that their versions are closer to the truth than everybody else's.

Oh, and in my opinion, it's a waste of money and precious time to learn any traditional weapon form unless you simultaneously learn at least the rudiments of how to use it tactically with a partner. You can't learn to play with others by playing with yourself [and that applies to a variety of activities].

[sdf]

Sorry pal, (edit: I know that many people will laugh at me now, or think that I am stupid . . ) but I don't believe in that myth for a second. First, Taijiquan didn't start with CWT. Chenquan started with him, but most principles, postures etc. are older than him. Second, if that was true, the first and most important weapon in Chen style would always be the guandao. There are to many logical flaws in that story for me to accept. A Chinese scholar who wrote much about taijiquan and CMA in the 60s and 70s, Dr. Wilaim C.Hu, went through and read all books and records from Chenjiagou and could find nothing about kwandaos. Nor could he find anything about Chen style and staffs, which Chen stylists also has claimed was a speciality weapon of the Chenjiagou. So there are no real proofs that Chen Wanting developed his style from the guandao. But if you can serve me one . . .

Yeah right your myth better than mine myth right ? Cheng Wangting was an army officer. Sure enough he didn't know anything about guan dao right? Why would army used guan dao at all? What a nonsense ? Just kidding

If you really look in history most barehand martial arts actually come from weapons because weapon in fact was more martial than bare hands I think even cave man figured it out very quickly enough while chasing mammoths This leave no doubt that weapon was created way before the first embryo of taijiquan come to life.

Now look at depiction of Chen Wangting. I wonder what he is holding in his hand? Probably one of his favorite weapons perhaps?


Now back to the history
The first few sentences of Chen Wangting's songs :"Changes of actions such as extending and bending are so unexpected as to be totally unpredictable. I rely on all kinds of subtle body movements such as twisting and swirling"

Now lets watch as general Guan Yu as he depicted in Chinese move "Battle of red cliff" just for heck of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07RGUK0Nr-8

I wonder where chan si gong come from? Huh?

Continue..Chen Wangting was retiring at the moment when Ming dynasty was replaced my Qing. "During the Qing dynasty some extraordinarily heavy versions of guan dao were made for use in military examinations: a candidate had to be able to wield a weapon weighing 80, 100, or 120 jin (48, 60 or 72 kg) in order to pass"

Back to Chen Wangting's song "Recalling past years, how bravely I fought to wipe out enemy troops, and what risks I went through! All the favors bestowed on me are now in vain! Now old and feeble, I am accompanied only by the book of Huang Ting. Life consists in creating actions of boxing when feeling depressed, doing field work when the season comes, and spending the leisure time teaching disciples and children so that they can be worthy members of the society." I wonder how his disciples will be worthy members of society in Qing army without weapon training? Probably not.

If you think about say BGZ or XNQ you may just imagine the first with broad swords (dao) and the second with staff. Hand position body movements all just fit in the weapon forms. And yet when you go on the battle field at that time what you are going to rely your hands or weapon. I think the answer is obvious - weapon.

[Bao]

And yet when you go on the battle field at that time what you are going to rely your hands or weapon. I think the answer is obvious - weapon.

I never said that CMA or Taijiquan did not come from weaponry. Weapon practice was developed into empty hands methods. This is very obvious for most of us I believe. But I will say that I do not believe that Taijiquan was developed from the guandao. Taijiquan was developed both before and after CWT. You should not over-estimate the influence of the kwan dao, not even in Chenjiaquan (later known as Chen style Taijiquan). Also, he obviously knew more weapons than this one - because he was an army officer - right. If his style was totally based on the guandao, every chen stylist would know and practice the guan dao. If this weapon is so important for chen style, how can you even understand Chen Taijiquan without understanding and practicing the guandao??? But in reality, how many taijiquan practitioners even know about the existence of this weapon? The truth is that the guan dao has never been important in taijiquan, not even in Chen style, and there are no facts supporting any other presumption. The guandao might have been his favorite weapon or not, but you should know that in chinese painings, generals are always portrayed with a guandao! It is a symbol for generals. Because of the lack of written material about Chen style and guandaos, it would be just as likely to presume that the myth that taijiquan was based on this weapon begun with some people watching a portrait of CWT and said: "Hey, that's it - Chen style was based on the guan dao!"

[neijia_boxer]

Waterway- I wanted to chime in on the broadsword convo-

Who are your teachers and what style to they teach? Are they traditionalist or wushu stylist?

I learned Taiji broadsword from Fu Qing Quan- grandson of Fu Zhong Wen. when I was taught we were told that the form should be done fast paced. The Broadsword is active and agile like a tiger and the straight sword resembles a spirited dragon. There is no way that they should be practiced like some judges at tournaments told me: " your Yang weapon form is suppose slow and even like the Yang taijiquan solo hand form." Those assholes are stupid and are banished to Bao's "dumb" category.

The weapon forms give you a chance to begin to extend your jin (power) into a weapon. Some say broadsword helps train the waist, but really it helps train the wrist. The hand should grip the weapon and not be loose.

A good teacher will show you a dozen basic solo techniques to do before learning the form. They should also be able to tell you the difference between broadsword and straight sword techniques and why it is that way. You should be able to know some counter techniques to other weapons as well.

Get or make some padded weapons and try them with a partner.

Other than that if you dont get that your wasting your time.