Wu 吴 vs. Wu / Hao 武 / 郝

[bailewen]

Well that certainly puts my own understanding of the history into a broader context.

It also makes sense that my version matches what is passed down, according to your post, in Yang lineages. After all....that's me. I'm in a Yang lineage.

[Bao]

Thank you very much for the info Tom. I guess most of it make sense. And it confirms my belief that it is not fair to compare other taiji styles with modern Chen style since all of them have developed and gone through big changes. Maybe Chen style is in fact the one which has gone through most changes of them all?

And I haven't all of Jarek's articles. Maybe I should take a look at them again . . .

[Doc Stier]

Wu/Hao comes from xiaojia (small frame Chen) whereas Yang comes from dajia (large frame Chen) - that's why they look so different.

Dont you think that answer is a bit over-simplified? I mean WYX also had YLC as teacher and YLC had other influence as well.

Please remember that the Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan also includes Small Frame Sets which are generally referred to as Usage Sets or Application Sets. They employ shorter steps, higher stances, smaller circles, changes of speed and rhythm from slower to faster, both firm and soft energy expressions,and overt power issuing techniques when performing the obvious striking techniques (ta-fa).

It is the Yang Small Frame postures, not the Large Frame postures, that Wu Yu-Hsiang combined with Chen Style Small Frame postures to create his own Tai-Chi Chuan style. As a result, the Wu/Li/Hao Tai-Chi Chuan resembles both of these style sources in more ways than it resembles the Large Frame postures of either Old Frame Yang Style or Old Frame Chen Style.

Doc

[Bao]

Wu/Hao comes from xiaojia (small frame Chen) whereas Yang comes from dajia (large frame Chen) - that's why they look so different.

Dont you think that answer is a bit over-simplified? I mean WYX also had YLC as teacher and YLC had other influence as well.

Please remember that the Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan also includes Small Frame Sets which are generally referred to as Usage Sets or Application Sets. They employ shorter steps, higher stances, smaller circles, changes of speed and rhythm from slower to faster, both firm and soft energy expressions,and overt power issuing techniques when performing the obvious striking techniques (ta-fa).

It is the Yang Small Frame postures, not the Large Frame postures, that Wu Yu-Hsiang combined with Chen Style Small Frame postures to create his own Tai-Chi Chuan style. As a result, the Wu/Li/Hao Tai-Chi Chuan resembles both of these style sources in more ways than it resembles the Large Frame postures of either Old Frame Yang Style or Old Frame Chen Style.

Doc

Thanks Doc. Yes, I have understood that there should be some influence from the small frame set. However, the shenfa of Wu/Hao is very different from what I have seen from small frame Yang. Small frame Yang seems to include a broken rythm and broken jin. But Wu/Hao shenfa is very compact and the jin always connected directly from the transitions of stance. Yang Small frame seems to directly support the movement from the hands with the foot and centerline, but the arm movement can look as separated from the rest of the body. It might be full body support, but not always full body movement. But for Wy/Hao, and also Sun, hand and foot movement always come together, working as strung together.

What I would suggest is that Wu Yuxiang took this concept one step further than Chen or Yang styles and re-defined the kai-he (open/close) theory. Not saying that this method of shen fa is better than any other style, just saying that the shen fa of Wu/Hao is the most compact of them all.

[Doc Stier]

Thanks Doc. Yes, I have understood that there should be some influence from the small frame set. However, the shenfa of Wu/Hao is very different from what I have seen from small frame Yang. Small frame Yang seems to include a broken rythm and broken jin. But Wu/Hao shenfa is very compact and the jin always connected directly from the transitions of stance. Yang Small frame seems to directly support the movement from the hands with the foot and centerline, but the arm movement can look as separated from the rest of the body. It might be full body support, but not always full body movement. But for Wu/Hao, and also Sun, hand and foot movement always come together, working as strung together.

Bao:

I would say that if you have seen any Old Yang Style Small Frame Set performed with interrupted jin, or with arm and hand movements done independently of body movements, then you have not seen the set performed correctly, IMO.

Whenever one part moves, all parts should move in synchronized unity.

Doc

[Ron Panunto]

Yes, I oversimplified to the point that when I said Yang came from Chen dajia, I was referring to what I would call "main stream" Yangjia, i.e. the shenfa handed down through Yang Chenfu's line to Yang Zhendou and now Yang Jun. This line clearly comes from Chen dajia. I realize that there are Yang small frame forms and so-called old Yang styles, etc., but many of these styles lack legitimacy and wide practice. For those that practice the so-called Yang small frame systems I would recommend that you stop dicking around with something that can't be substantiated and instead study legitimate Chen xiaojia which has retained its traditional purity.

Wu/Hao on the other hand clearly comes from Chen xiaojia with the higher postures, clear opening/closing postures, and follow stepping. These characteristics are not seen in "main stream" Yangjia, or for that Chen dajia.

I also agree that xiaojia was the original form of Chen taiji and that dajia was a simplification of xiaojia. The xiaoja system is much more martial and complete in its traditional bare hand and weapons forms than dajia.

[Doc Stier]

For those that practice the so-called Yang small frame systems I would recommend that you stop dicking around with something that can't be substantiated and instead study legitimate Chen xiaojia which has retained its traditional purity.

Wu/Hao on the other hand clearly comes from Chen xiaojia with the higher postures, clear opening/closing postures, and follow stepping. These characteristics are not seen in "main stream" Yangjia, or for that Chen dajia.

What a hoot!

I find your comment here to be quite arrogant, insulting and presumptuous, especially considering that you obviously have no idea what is or is not legitimate.

The readily observable results of my own long term practice experience of Yang Pan-Hou's Small Frame Fast Form Set are proof enough of it's legitimacy, IMO. Too bad you aren't also experiencing the benefits of its practice.

BTW, this set also includes all of the physical characteristics you mention, as well as virtually every other characteristic found in the Chen and Wu/Hao Small Frame Styles, FYI.



Doc

[Bob Mnemos]

Just some thoughts:

Wu Yuxiang studied with Yang Luchan for about two years before seeking out YLC's teacher Chen Changxing (1771-1853). The story goes that CCX by this time (ca. 1853?) was elderly and ill, and the proprietor of the inn where WYX was staying recommended Chen Qingping. WYX visited/trained with CQP for about forty days, in this version passed down in the Yang lineages.

One of my Chinese teachers in Taiji (wu style) pointed out that Chen Qing Ping "married into Zhaobao Village" from Chen Zhiaogou village meaning that he married a woman from ZhaoBao village. He was reported to have introduced the Chen small frame to ZhaoBao Village. So when Wu YuXiang came to Chen Village to study, supposedly Chen Changxing declined because he was too old to teach and sent Wu YuXiang to Zhaobao village.

Curiously, though, WYX is listed in both Chen family and Zhaobao taijiquan lineages (which both claim CQP as a disciple/teacher) as a disciple of Chen Qingping.

That would make sense with what I said above.

Separately, it is not certain that Yang Luchan studied Chen Dajia, Ron. Chen Xiaojia folks say that Chen Dajia was developed in a collaboration between Chen Youben and his nephew Chen Gengyun (Chen Fake's grandfather) to expedite training . . . and so goes back no further than the mid-1800s. If this is the case, then what Chen Changxin very possibly taught was not the Dajia we see today, but Xiaojia. YLC was a training peer of Chen Gengyun, not his student.

So WYX may in fact have been training Chen Xiaojia with YLC for two years before going to see the Chen Xiaojia/Zhaobao teacher Chen Qingping. If WYX was already studying Chen Xiaojia or some close approximation taught by YLC for two years before seeing CQP, then the 40 days he's said to have spent with CQP would be better understood as a refinement/polishing of basic Xiaojia skills already trained for two years than as an attempt to learn Xiaojia insights for a short period after practicing Dajia for two years.

All of that's possible, but someone emailed me a post from Yang Jun (the Yang heir) which openly says that despite all the extra legends and stuff, the Yang style is derived from the Chen form. That pretty much ends a lot of discussion in the Wu styles, according to my teacher, about who got what from where because the big claims to "different from Chen style" all hinge on the Yang style being different. A buddy of mine who was at a big meal with Chen Xiaoweng said that Chen mentioned that Yang was given permission to teach martial arts so he could make a liveing but he was not allowed to teach everything, so the Yang style was not exactly like the Chen style (according to the story). That would make sense too, if you think about it.

In any event, the confusion/conflation of Old Frame/New Frame and Large Frame/Small Frame seems to go back to Tang Hao in the 1930s, but not before. Check out this article/translation by Jarek Szymanski:

Before Chen Youben - 14th generation descendant of Chen clan and 6th generation inheritor of Chen style Taijiquan - there was only one method of Taijiquan practice transmitted, and there was no division into Large and Small Frames. Chen Youben was key personage who played epoch-making role in dividing Chen style Taijiquan into Large and Small Frames.

According to the records in "Genealogy of Chen Family" (Chen Shi Jia Cheng), Chen Gongzhao, Chen Youben's father "achieved pure and precise (Taijiquan) skill, and trained many students with deep understanding (of Taijiquan)" (in Chenjiagou there is a story about Chen Gongzhao competing in strength with a mad cow); Chen Youben and Chen Youheng, his blood brother, "were both Xiang Sheng (students of the ancient local school) and learnt Taijiquan, especially (Chen) Youben, who received "the dragon's pearl" (i.e. true transmission of Taijiquan), and trained his sons and brother's sons in the art (of Taijiquan), had a modest carriage, always as if (his skill) was inferior (to others), at that time most of people who excelled in Taijiquan were his disciples. (...) (Chen) Youben's disciples - Chen Qingping, Chen Youlun, Chen Fengzhang, Chen Sande, Chen Tingdong had certain achievements, Chen Gengyun also called him (Chen Youben) a teacher.

(Chen) Qingping passed (Taijiquan) to He Zhaoyuan, Zhang Kai, Zhang Gaoshan of Zhaobao town. (Chen) Youlun passed (Taijiquan) to Li Jingyan, Zhang Dahong".

From the above record it can be seen that both Chen Gongzhao and his son, Chen Youben, were martial artists of great attainments and had many famous disciples; Chen Youben evidently received true transmission of Taijiquan from his father. Moreover Small Frame already existed before Chen Youben.

Small Frame combines hardness with softness, there is more softness and less hardness in the First Set (Yi Lu), more hardness and less softness in the Second Set (Er Lu). Furthermore since Small Frame has a very complete theoretical system and strict, step-by-step method of practice, people in Chenjiagou praise it as "Gongfu Frame" (Gongfu Jia) or "Special Frame" (Kan Jia Quan; Kan Jia literally means "look after the house"). It is not that - as some books say - "Chen Youben, 14th generation descendant of Chen clan, made some changes to the original routines, gradually abandoning some more difficult and vigorous movements, and created New Frame (Xin Jia), also called Small Frame, as extended as Old Frame (Lao Jia)"[6].

Since Chen Changxing was escorting caravans away from home all the year round, Chen Gengyun (Chen Changxing's son and 15th generation descendant of Chen clan), in order to work together with the father, asked Chen Youben, his uncle, to teach him. In order to help Chen Gengyun achieve skill in the shortest possible time, Chen Youben, while preserving the quintessence of the First Set (in) Thirteen Postures (Tou Tao Shi San Shi), put emphasis on "Power Explosions" (Bao Fa Li), enlarged the movements, and coached Chen Gengyun for over a year. Chen Youben and Chen Gengyun through discussions and thorough studies created a certain type of frame; since then, in order to differ it from First Set (in) Thirteen Postures (Tou Tao Shi San Shi), people began to call them "Small Circles" and "Large Circles". Chen Gengyun passed this frame to his family members; it was also taught to Chen Fake - his grandson - who in 1928 was invited to Beijing to teach martial arts, and made this frame known to the public. Later generations began to refer to this frame as "Large Frame" (Da Jia), while to traditional system as "Small Frame" (Xiao Jia).
**********************
[6] This claim originally comes from Tang Hao's writings. Tang Hao was taken to Chenjiagou in January 1932 by Chen Ziming, Chen Xin's disciple. It was Tang Hao who published the results of his research in Chen Ziming's book "The Art of Chen Family Taijiquan Transmitted Through Generations" (Chen Shi Shi Chuan Taijiquan Shu) published in 1932 and - apart form the above statement - used the terms of "Old Frame" (Lao Jia) and "New Frame" (Xin Jia). Ms. Chen Peiju says that "Small Frame practitioners support the idea of Chen style existing in two Frames - Large and Small, but reject the division into Old Frame (Lao Jia) and New Frame (Xin Jia). Also Chen Zhaokui's son, Chen Yu, is against this way of dividing the style". On the other hand not only Tang Hao, but Chen Ziming as well used the names "Old Frame" and "New Frame" in his book.[¡Back to the article]

The claim that Small Frame was created by "gradually abandoning some more difficult and vigorous movements" should be reconsidered in the light of some very difficult movements still existing in Small Frame routines, including the most characteristic "Kicking with Both Heels" (Shuang Deng Gen) which does not appear in Large Frame sets.

Who knows? I heard that there is no difference between the small and big frames in principles but that someone starting from scratch should start with the big movements but someone already with some body skills can start with smaller movements. As I heard it the smaller stuff was usually done by guys in their 40's and up who didn't want to rip snort all over the place any more because they were getting older.

Bob

[Doc Stier]

I heard that there is no difference between the small and big frames in principles but that someone starting from scratch should start with the big movements but someone already with some body skills can start with smaller movements. As I heard it the smaller stuff was usually done by guys in their 40's and up who didn't want to rip snort all over the place any more because they were getting older.

That last sentence is too funny.

Getting older in a solidly established, legitimate internal arts practice usually equates to exponentially better skills and a much more profound knowledge and understanding of the arts, not the other way around, IMO.

Doc

[Bao]

A buddy of mine who was at a big meal with Chen Xiaoweng said that Chen mentioned that Yang was given permission to teach martial arts so he could make a liveing but he was not allowed to teach everything, so the Yang style was not exactly like the Chen style (according to the story). That would make sense too, if you think about it.
. . .
The claim that Small Frame was created by "gradually abandoning some more difficult and vigorous movements" should be reconsidered in the light of some very difficult movements still existing in Small Frame routines, including the most characteristic "Kicking with Both Heels" (Shuang Deng Gen) which does not appear in Large Frame sets.[/i] Who knows? I heard that there is no difference between the small and big frames in principles but that someone starting from scratch should start with the big movements but someone already with some body skills can start with smaller movements. As I heard it the smaller stuff was usually done by guys in their 40's and up who didn't want to rip snort all over the place any more because they were getting older.
Bob

Ok, now we have gone through a full circle and I want to remind about this post:

The infatuation with "fast" form has two major causes: first, a lot of people don't understand the purpose of doing the form slow. They apply the training model of external martial art, which is more intuitive, easy to understand, to internal practice. I.e.: you train how you fight, and real fighting is fast, so why spend all this time doing slow motion training? So unless you do a fast form, you cannot fight using Taiji.

The second reason is political (on many fronts). One of the most common myth in Taiji Quan today is that originally Taiji Quan form has a lot of difficult movements (jumps, high kicks), that when Yang Luchan taught the nobles, those guys are so weak he eliminated those moves, and made them more smooth, even, easier to practice.

I think we should separate and carefully distinguish the difference between different reasons why a style change and the dictomy of small and large movements.

You have to understand that in China, into the 20th century, it was still considered ugly and low class to work with your body, even to sweat. People in the citys did not want to be "like peasants". They did not want to act or be compared with peasants. When western schools were built in China, mostly built by jesuits, in the 19th and beginning of 20th century, they saw that chinese students was not fit. They tried to introduce sports and fitness activities as football, but the chinese students never wanted to do anything of that kind. That was just not the way a young man should act. And this is the reason why people looked down on "boxers", especially wrestlers. People looked down on them just as they looked down on peasants.

Therefore in YLCs time, when he was teaching nobels and officials, he could not ask them to work hard and sweat. It is not that they could not learn hard moves. But he could get himself killed if he tried to force that kind of practice upon them. The slow Yang taijiquan especially was "invented" so that people of higher rank could learn martial arts without getting to warm and sweaty. But this was not a new invention as even Shaolin styles has been treated the same way earlier.

But this slow comfortable practice has nothing to do with small or large frames. Or well, maybe the high ranks wanted their practice to look beautiful. Let's return to this quote: "I heard that there is no difference between the small and big frames in principles but that someone starting from scratch should start with the big movements but someone already with some body skills can start with smaller movements. As I heard it the smaller stuff was usually done by guys in their 40's and up who didn't want to rip snort all over the place any more because they were getting older."

Why people are taught large movements first has not much do with the physical appearance of the forms. "first big later small" is actually a misinterpretation of the Kai/he concept. It says kai-he, which is mostly translated as "open-close". Open is first, then close. It is not the opposite around. For Kai, or open also the word "zhan" was used, which means "stretch". But open or stretch means to open up the body from inside so the qi and blood can flow. But like water, you can not just let a water flood behave how it wants to, you must control it and direct it. He means not "close" but "connect". It means that you connect your structure so that you will have a controlled circulation. That is why it is said "kai/he must be found in every movement" and that "kai/he is manifested through the whole body". And that is why that in wu/hao (and sun) you don't speak about small or large movements. The movement which is important is in the inside of the body, not the external movement. Therefore, movements should never be taught to large and both small and large movements should not be taught seperately, but strung together with the kai-he concepts. What look wide can actually be small and what looks small can actually be large. What is going on on the inside of the body will dictate what is small or large movement, not the external form.

And why Chen style was divided into frames has nothing to do with methods of teaching - it was a about a competition with Yang style and the reason was about ego only.

[Bob Mnemos]

[quote="Bao"first big later small" is actually a misinterpretation of the Kai/he concept. [/quote]I don't agree with you. There is open and close in both the big frame and the small frame. There is kai-he in all the internal arts whether they're done with big movements or small movements. So my take is that you're mixing up two topics. Big goes to small. Movement goes toward stillness. That's one topic. Kai-he is another. But every guy has his own beliefs and if that's your take on things, more power to ya.

Bob.

[Bao]

first big later small" is actually a misinterpretation of the Kai/he concept.

I don't agree with you. There is open and close in both the big frame and the small frame. There is kai-he in all the internal arts whether they're done with big movements or small movements. So my take is that you're mixing up two topics. Big goes to small. Movement goes toward stillness. That's one topic. Kai-he is another. But every guy has his own beliefs and if that's your take on things, more power to ya.

Bob.

I just added to the earlier post: "The movement which is important is in the inside of the body, not the external movement. Therefore, movements should never be taught to large and both small and large movements should not be taught seperately, but strung together with the kai-he concepts. What look wide can actually be small and what looks small can actually be large. What is going on on the inside of the body will dictate what is small or large movement, not the external form."

I think you misunderstood me a tiny little bit. I didnt say that one or the other do not have kai-he. I meant that all taijiquan ,big or small frame, should have the kai-he concept. Otherwise it will be shit. It is true that the beginner will not understand internal movement and therefore will always be taught to "Internalize" his practice. But I don't think it is good to focus on to large external movements. The modern yang form practice (short forms) for instance, has become a disgusting way to prevent people from achieving true health through taiji practice. And Wu/Hao and Sun styles does not have the same "large/small- frame thinking" as of modern Chen. This going from large to small frames (focus on external movement) is a very modern way of practice.

[velalavela]

[quote="Bao
Ok, now we have gone through a full circle and I want to remind about this post:


You have to understand that in China, into the 20th century, it was still considered ugly and low class to work with your body, even to sweat. People in the citys did not want to be "like peasants". They did not want to act or be compared with peasants. When western schools were built in China, mostly built by jesuits, in the 19th and beginning of 20th century, they saw that chinese students was not fit. They tried to introduce sports and fitness activities as football, but the chinese students never wanted to do anything of that kind. That was just not the way a young man should act. And this is the reason why people looked down on "boxers", especially wrestlers. People looked down on them just as they looked down on peasants.

Therefore in YLCs time, when he was teaching nobels and officials, he could not ask them to work hard and sweat. It is not that they could not learn hard moves. But he could get himself killed if he tried to force that kind of practice upon them. The slow Yang taijiquan especially was "invented" so that people of higher rank could learn martial arts without getting to warm and sweaty. But this was not a new invention as even Shaolin styles has been treated the same way earlier.

[/quote]

Hi Bao,

I'm not so sure about this point Yang Lu Chan slowed down Ta Chi so he could teach nobles in the court.
Wasn't he hired s martial instructor to the Imperial gaurd? So most of his students were military and quite able to handle a little hard work? Fu Zhong Wen's book and Ma Yueh Liang's book both state changes were made when Tai Chi went public from 1914. Some time after yang Lu Chan's time.

As `for martial artist being looked down on...sure you are right, until Sun Lu Tang's Xing Yi Quan book was published in 1915 (primarily to promote martial arts for health) the educated in China did not have much time for martial artists or martial arts.

Regards

[Yuen-Ming]

I'm not so sure about this point Yang Lu Chan slowed down Ta Chi so he could teach nobles in the court.
Wasn't he hired s martial instructor to the Imperial gaurd? So most of his students were military and quite able to handle a little hard work? Fu Zhong Wen's book and Ma Yueh Liang's book both state changes were made when Tai Chi went public from 1914. Some time after yang Lu Chan's time.

Yes, there is no concrete evidence - that I know - that supports this thesis althou it's an opinion put forward by many.

It is understandable, I believe, that such an art going *public* (from Yongnian to Beijing) and being taught to different kinds of people some adaptations might have been done, in a few specific cases, according to the *expectations* and needs of the various students/disciples.
I don't believe, however, that the art taught at the various guards were modified in purpouse in any way. After all, three of the top disciples of Yang Luchan - Wan Chun, Ling Shan and Quan You - were all trained in that specific timeframe and reached top levels.

YM

[Bob Mnemos]

I think you misunderstood me a tiny little bit. I didnt say that one or the other do not have kai-he. I meant that all taijiquan ,big or small frame, should have the kai-he concept. Otherwise it will be shit. It is true that the beginner will not understand internal movement and therefore will always be taught to "Internalize" his practice. But I don't think it is good to focus on to large external movements. The modern yang form practice (short forms) for instance, has become a disgusting way to prevent people from achieving true health through taiji practice. And Wu/Hao and Sun styles does not have the same "large/small- frame thinking" as of modern Chen. This going from large to small frames (focus on external movement) is a very modern way of practice.

I think large external movements with no understanding of the forces/pressure and connection within the body just leads to large external movements. But even if you do learn or begin to understand the forces and connections you still have to work them from larger to smaller. Kai-he, open-close, yin-yang -- yeah of course that's got to be there. Not just in Taijiquan but in any of the arts that move using the liu he. It's part of the deal that's built in.

Bob