"Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:50 pm

Dajenarit wrote:Look. If people wanna modify or create their own style of Tai Chi then be honest about it.

Not many people are.

Dajenarit wrote:I think for alot of Tai Chi people its just easier to live off the legacy of the Old Tai Chi families instead of owning their own material.


I think that it's not always that simple. Sometimes it's better to put old things together in a new manner, and maybe finding an alternative way of describing things.

First: We don't live in old China. We should try and adopt different methods more suitable for our own time. And we should also seek a vocabulary for our own language and our own time.

Second: Sometimes when one wants to focus on certain aspects, we need to make a statement so what we teach are not being mistaken for traditional methods. This, obviously, is for branding purposes. For instance, I think that Docherty made a correct decision to label his martial oriented teaching with a certain name that differentiates his school from others. But of course, honesty is needed.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Xiong on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:54 pm

cloudz wrote:Ip tai Tak was senior disciple to Yang Sau Cheung so he doesn't really need to make material up from scratch.

Xiong what did you show your sifu, and what is 'made up', that's not particularly clear from your post.



Did Ip Tak Tai ever publically say he taught the Yang style snake or is this a “secret” being shown to the world by a student?
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby taiwandeutscher on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:48 pm

A bit smelly, at least, and the Yang people in Hkk nowadays are only so so!
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:58 pm

My teacher never made any mention of a "hidden snake style" in the early Yang Family training curriculum in the more than 45 years of my association with him to date. And when asked about it in reference to this thread, he stated that his primary teacher, Yang Shao-Hou, never mentioned or taught such a style, either, to the best of his knowledge and recollection. :-\

Additionally, the external hands demonstrated in the video clip are certainly not 'secret' techniques, as they appear 'hidden' in plain view within all three frames of the older Yang Style form sets. Nonetheless, the presentation is fresh and creative, even if the material is not, rather than just another profoundly boring attempt at marketing the same old same old one more time. -shrug-
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Yuen-Ming on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:27 pm

Snake and crane only exist in Yeung (Yang) Sau Chung's line so it is not difficult to understand where they come from.

Yang Chengfu did not receive the full curriculum his father, or his older brother, practiced and worked mainly to standardize and spread a short/public curriculum based on the family public frame.

His son, however, must have known about the impressive amount of frames and exercises within the earlier generations of his family so he might have had that in mind when he enlarged his father material modifying the standard Chengfu frame into two separate (additional) frames.

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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:36 pm

I suppose the Snake Style being touted as "hidden" here is most likely Yang Sau Chung's personal interpretation of his family's Taiji.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Andy_S on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:39 am

It strikes me as a bit odd that after Yang LC left Chen Village, the Yang, Wu, Hao and Sun masters all came up with with their own systems of Taiji within 40-50 years of each other, and nobody questioned them, but now the best part of a century has passed and no more family styles of Taiji have appeared that are recognized as legitimate... Dong style is generally recognized as a substyle of Yang, while Hong and Feng styles are generally recognized as substyles of Chen.

Why the lack of innovation in recent Taiji?

Is this implicit recognition of the supposition that the pre-modern, golden days of Taiji are now long past, and nobody alive today will ever be able to replicate the skill levels of the old maestros?

If so - given that so many more people are praciticing the art, we have better information, better sport science, better nutrition, etc - why is this?
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Steve Rowe on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:23 am

I can only speak from my personal experience and memory, when Mary Yang (YSC's daughter) started teaching westerners I was one of the first that Jim Uglow took along to her in HK. It was on one of those first few visits that I met John Conroy and his students from Boston including Bob Boyd, Ip Tai Tak was a part of the 'visits' that we made at that time and he showed some of his pushing and application skills and parts of his notebooks. If I remember correctly John Ding (who was not a part of our group) took a discipleship and Bob Boyd decided to go with Ip and also became a disciple - and the group decided to 'share' the knowledge to get the full extent of YSC's teachings.

I stayed with Jim Uglow and Mary Yang and could see nothing in particular for me personally in Chu King Hung, Chu Gin Soon or Ip Tai Tak's teachings. Mary was an excellent teacher with good English and logical, rational explanation that suited my mindset.

I wrote this inspired by that visit at the end of 1999.... bloody hell that was 12 years ago...
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby GusFring on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:50 am

Since this site was referenced above, here's a link to the fakest thing I've ever seen:

http://www.nytaichi.com/sparringvideo.htm
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Steve Rowe on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:22 am

Has H Won Gim and Dan Harden ever met?
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby kshurika on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:11 am

Lineage, transmission, qi and village aside: In the short clip of Bob doing push hands (around :42), his shoulders are very tight and lifting up to his ears. Maybe he needs a little more "Snake Style", because snakes rarely do this.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:32 am

Snakes don't have shoulders. Just saying.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:45 am

kshurika wrote:Lineage, transmission, qi and village aside: In the short clip of Bob doing push hands (around :42), his shoulders are very tight and lifting up to his ears. Maybe he needs a little more "Snake Style", because snakes rarely do this.


Yes, Graham said it allready. Snakes don't have shoulders. But we have and I can't see any wrong using them. If you watch his form you see that he use his shoulders flexible when he do the "single whip" posture. Loose flexible shoulders are the opposite from stiff lifted shoulders. I can't see any wrong with it. Quite the opposite actually.
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby bailewen on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:15 am

Andy_S wrote:It strikes me as a bit odd that after Yang LC left Chen Village, the Yang, Wu, Hao and Sun masters all came up with with their own systems of Taiji within 40-50 years of each other, and nobody questioned them, but now the best part of a century has passed and no more family styles of Taiji have appeared that are recognized as legitimate... Dong style is generally recognized as a substyle of Yang, while Hong and Feng styles are generally recognized as substyles of Chen.

Why the lack of innovation in recent Taiji?

Is this implicit recognition of the supposition that the pre-modern, golden days of Taiji are now long past, and nobody alive today will ever be able to replicate the skill levels of the old maestros?

If so - given that so many more people are praciticing the art, we have better information, better sport science, better nutrition, etc - why is this?

I have an answer to this.

The Yang, Wu, Hao and Sun masters did not come up with their own systems of Taiji. Back in the day, the way I heard it anyways, there was no such thing as "XYZ" styles. There was just "Taijiquan" and each person had their specific lineage. It as a given that each teacher taught it differently and had their own "style" (in the most colloquial sense of the word). The concept of distinct "styles" (as in "Yang Style" or "Wy Style") only came into existence shortly after the establishment of Communist China and the creation of national standardized competitions. With everyone performing radically different versions of Taijiquan, there was no way to judge them competitively. So the national sports authority looked around and created broad categories: Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu (Hao), and Sun. Standard routines were established and the various branches were delineated.

Back before I came to China I used to be a pretty decent swing dancer in San Francisco. We used to watch people lindy and discuss their "style". There was (late 90's) a distinct and recognizable San Francisco style lindy and also a Los Angeles style Lindy. It wasn't codified but we all knew it when we saw it. That's how Taiji used to be. My dad is more of a Tango guy and he says the same thing about the Tango scene. He dances mostly in Montreal but has also been to Buenos Aires and has commented on the Argentine style vs. the American style vs. the Montreal Style.

The fact is, outside of the competition circuit, there has been no lack of innovation whatsoever. Anyone who says they train a very specific "style" with faithfulness to the original "style" is training a dead style. I have watched my own teacher make radical modifications of both his Taiji form and his Baji and I have spoken with various of his more senior students who have all confirmed that his form from 10-20 years ago was even more different from his form today. Heck, I watch him improvise at various points just from week to week.

My point is, LOTS of innovation going on but most people feel no need to give it a new label, including the founders of the Wu, Wu, Sun and Yang styles. Lots of people just doing their thing. When asked in public, what style do I train, I just say "Yang"...just like I have seen my teacher do. No need to call it "Baguataijiquan" or "Old Frame yada yada yada....".

My question is not about why people today are not innovating. It's about why people feel the need to add a new name to every little new change. A model T is a "car" and so is a Ferrari. We divide then into "Cars" and "Trucks" but a Honda Civic and a Ford Mustang are still both just "cars". More to the point, even if you want to split up sports cars and hatch backs, a 2012 Mustang is radically different form a '66 but we don't have to create separate categories for them. Their both ford mustangs, just from different periods. :)
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Re: "Hidden Snake Style of the Yang Family"

Postby kshurika on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:56 am

A shout out to GrahamB for info on snake shoulders and the lack thereof. It's why you almost never see snakes doing dips and overhead presses.

Speaking of shoulders: Martial artists, yogis, dancers, fencers, gymnasts, chronic masturbators, swimmers, track athletes, all athletes and all humans on earth until the end of time shouldn't lift their shoulders up to their ears. This isn't "using" the shoulders. It's tightening them, the upper back and the neck. It kills your power and it's bad for you. That's why you never see snakes lif........ (whew! I caught myself that time. I could almost hear Graham going for his keyboard.)
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