Utility and application of the cross-alignment principle?

[Samoobramba]

Some said that having the substantial (weighted) leg and the substantial (hitting) hand on the same side is "double-weightedness"!?
According to the "cross-alignment principle": "When the left upper part of the body is substantial the left lower part is insubstantial and similary when the right upper part of the body is substantial the right lower part is insubstantial."
Is said that when we don't apply this principle we can easily (with an experienced opponent) loose balance in a fight.

Any opinion about the utility and application of the cross-alignment principle?

[Interloper]

It isn't a principle, per se, but a state that your body takes on, in which you can shift your center of mass at will so that your opponent can't find it, or is deceived into thinking that it's somewhere that it really isn't. This particular state is attained by winding your body - starting with the legs (well, the ground, really) and going around your spine, keeping your hips and face/head oriented foward (you have to do this willfully) while allowing the winding to make your waist and shoulders turn.

The leg that initiates the winding feeds energy into the diagonal/opposite side of your body. So, if you initiate the winding by using your right leg, and hold out your left arm - palm facing to the right - someone pushing on your palm will feel as though he is pushing a brick wall. The force of his push is being shifted diagonally down to the ground (and back up again, into him) through your right leg. You can shift sides at will, winding left or right. If someone is holding onto one of your arms, the power of your wind will pull him along, or even pull him off his feet - a great set-up for a throw, or countless other applications, which too many people try to memorize as "techniques."

Picture a judo practitioner, or someone from another grappling/throwing art, coming in to sweep your leg or take your hip, because he believes that your weight is committed to the side he is attacking. But when he gets there, he can't find any committed body mass, or your center. And, you are generating power from the ground on the opposite (diagonal) side, so, besides not finding any weight to sweep on the leg he has attacked, and instead of finding a yielding body, he finds a body he can't enter at all. You can choose to hold him out at bay, bounce him off you, or suck him in and choke him out, or whatever you want.

[XiaoXiong]

I completely disagree. Think about xingyi and the seven stars principle. Beng Quan for one.

J

[Elliot]

Using the "cross alignment principle," how would you throw a jab?

[Formosa Neijia]

Some said that having the substantial (weighted) leg and the substantial (hitting) hand on the same side is "double-weightedness"!?
According to the "cross-alignment principle": "When the left upper part of the body is substantial the left lower part is insubstantial and similary when the right upper part of the body is substantial the right lower part is insubstantial."
Is said that when we don't apply this principle we can easily (with an experienced opponent) loose balance in a fight.

Any opinion about the utility and application of the cross-alignment principle?

It's misapplied in your example. If this were true, you'd have to throw out "grasp sparrow's tail" and other key taijiquan moves that use shun bu (same side stance) rather than au bu (opposite side).

Dave C.

[C.J.Wang]

The cross principle applies to Xingyi just fine.

Think about why some Xingyi masters emphasize the importance of the back hand.

[Josealb]

This "principle" was quoted from somewhere, from where? maybe its in context.

[Interloper]

I see no problem with the context, Jose. Maybe rather than the context from which the quote was taken being the issue, it's the differing experiences and interpretations of those on this board, reading it?

[ppscat]

Some said that having the substantial (weighted) leg and the substantial (hitting) hand on the same side is "double-weightedness"!?
According to the "cross-alignment principle": "When the left upper part of the body is substantial the left lower part is insubstantial and similary when the right upper part of the body is substantial the right lower part is insubstantial."
Is said that when we don't apply this principle we can easily (with an experienced opponent) loose balance in a fight.

Any opinion about the utility and application of the cross-alignment principle?

It's misapplied in your example. If this were true, you'd have to throw out "grasp sparrow's tail" and other key taijiquan moves that use shun bu (same side stance) rather than au bu (opposite side).

Dave C.

Dave, in Grasp Sparrow's Tail while your left arm starts expanding your push comes from your rear right leg, while expanding your weight goes to the front left leg gradually but not fully. Only when your left arm ends expansion, that is ending at the left side of your front left leg, the arm goes from substantial to unsubstantial simultaneously while you finally sink all the (remaining) weight on the front leg.

Hope this helps.

Pablo

[internalenthusiast]

just a couple thoughts.

my present understanding would be that the issue has at core to do with spiral movement. even walking is a spiral movement (opposite hand/foot), and the musculature of the body (especially torso), is arranged such that this is natural. indeed, imo, nothing in natural whole body movement is exactly linear.

i've heard also interpretations of the external harmonies that are same-sided, but my own proclivity is to think of it as, yes, cross body. for me, to think of it as from the waist/center outwards, helps in this conceptualization and feeling.

i think depending on the movement, that this cross body balance may take different emphases. sometimes it's the yin/pulling/wife hand that actually leads (in a split action). e.g., grasp sparrow's tail.

but even if one, say steps on the right foot, and roots a right punch out of that, it's a spiral, and the whole body adjusts as such, including the left foot.

if the natural spiral balance is not engaged, or is interfered with by tension, that's when a person might become "double weighted with himself", or say in even the simple act of walking, start looking like frankenstein.

i know there are various interpretations of this concept; but this is what i've found makes most sense to me.

i think it gets complicated when one includes six directions, expansion/contraction, etc. but it seems to me these are directional/dynamic attributes of spiral movement. hard to talk about...

fwiw...

[Formosa Neijia]

Dave, in Grasp Sparrow's Tail while your left arm starts expanding your push comes from your rear right leg, while expanding your weight goes to the front left leg gradually but not fully. Only when your left arm ends expansion, that is ending at the left side of your front left leg, the arm goes from substantial to unsubstantial simultaneously while you finally sink all the (remaining) weight on the front leg.

The original post talked about the weighted leg and the same side hand technique. There's nothing wrong with doing that in taijiquan, xingyiquan, etc. or anything else for that matter. For example, beng quan can be done in chicken step with one foot up. There isn't any weight at all in the other foot. And the beng can be done with either fist. Same with GST.

I think what people keep in mind is that a lot of this stuff is what you tell beginners when they first start out. Many of these things are meant as guidelines, not laws that should never be broken. you can let some of this stuff go eventually.

Dave C.

[Samoobramba]

I was thinking about this principle for few years. It is (over)emphasized in Cheng Man Ching style Taijiquan. I found that is used also in Baguazhang (and probably Xingyiquan).

The problem is that this principle restricts the combat freedom, so is questionable (when and how to use it). Yes, using the "cross-alignment principle" you can (probably) hit harder and have better balance. But not always this principle can be applied.

[edededed]

As Dave said, you can do most xingyi/bagua techniques on either side (arms and legs same, or arms and legs different). It does seem to me that the "same" (as opposed to "crossed") versions seem to be default, though, in general.

[Formosa Neijia]

As Dave said, you can do most xingyi/bagua techniques on either side (arms and legs same, or arms and legs different). It does seem to me that the "same" (as opposed to "crossed") versions seem to be default, though, in general.

Yeah, thinking about this stuff in terms of shun bu (same side) and au bu (opposite side) powers really clear it up. Typical shun bu move would be GST -- grasp bird's tail -- and typical au bu power is illustrated in brush knee (luo xi au bu). As you say, it is interesting to see how many taijiquan moves use shun bu/same side power.

Dave C.

[neijiachuanren]

Also physiological, the cross alignment corresponds to the spiral fascia path and the like