intent for creating structure and power

[GaryR]

I genuinely love to talk about martial-internal training because it is a great passion of mine, and because so much of my training is solo with little opportunity to have exchanges with others who do what I do. I'm juggling a business and caring for frail, elderly parents and maintaining my home and all of the responsibilities that come with that. If it stops being fun to come here, then it no longer serves a purpose. Life has enough stresses in it; training is my solace and my haven. I come here for fun and relaxation, not to eat my heart out.

By happy happenstance, I've met a couple of the people who regularly post on RSF, and we had a lot of fun touching hands. They had the right attitude, and we all came away the better for it. The more I see of the dynamics that go on here, the more I prefer in-person play dates, and the less I enjoy "discussions," especially those like this one.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. In person is almost always better. Meeting people on RSF and training/exchanging ideas in a friendly and constructive manner is what it's about -- in part. But for those people who cannot arrange to meet, discuss or have access to the teacher, colleagues or information they seek--RSF is/should be a place to do so via the other available mediums. Second best to in person is VIDEO, third best is PICTURE / diagram, fourth is textual only description/explanation.


Forget any arguments between others and your teacher, you are a separate person accountable for your own actions and words.

As someone who has known Chris personally for over a decade now (many many years in same location) I can assure you he is not a person of malice: The definition is:" a desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness: the malice and spite of a lifelong enemy." IN fact Chris is quite the opposite, he would be the first to walk away from a fight, even though he could probably handle most people without putting his tea down.

I may be bias, but from reading back on some of the threads, Chris (and others) have been MORE than patient and fair to both Dan and yourself. I see no malice at all (especially towards you). I apologize if anything I myself have posted came across as personal, it is not. I would not say anything to anyone online I wouldn't say in person, the difference being in person, I come across as much nicer about things.

Chris "Middleway,"
The above was not directed at you. I think your intentions are honorable, but there are others whose motivations are less than benign. My best suggestion is that you get to an IP/aiki seminar next time one is scheduled for England. Hands-on is worth more than a thousand words, and you'll have a much better opportunity to discuss things and ask questions face-to-face.

If middleways intentions are honorable why not discuss the topic he started? After all, to beat a dead horse, YOU are the one who first mentioned the question, and refused to provide any input. You don't want to waste time here if its stressful, well I (and others i'm sure at least in topical threads) don't want YOU to waste OUR time with your vagueness and lack of on topic contributions. Threads in this forum especially is supposed to be a place for on-topic and quality discussion.

While Toms call to treat you completely separate from your teacher would normally be fair. I don't think it is, as evidenced above you are plugging Dan's seminars, while at the same time side-tracking yet another thread-one that stemmed from your other detraction in my thread. Not to mention it seems as though you are Discouraging another forum member to not engage in discussion here. We need people here that are willing to share and encourage the same.

Just forget any-ill will towards Chris or anyone else , and not wanting to discuss with them. There are plenty of forum members that could potentially benefit from the conversation and maybe your input.

I have no ill-will or personal issue with either yourself, Dan, or anyone else on here for that matter. At this point I simply have zero respect for Dan and any of his students who are:

1) UN-willling to share while criticizing others (especially non-constructively),
2) refuses to engage in substantive on-topic discussion, and
3) doing the foregoing while peddling seminars and not offering any description/video for would be attendees.

I would have that lack of respect for anyone who did the same. The fact that your garbage spilled into my thread urked me enough to be less than cordial, but I do commend and thank you not continuing to post so it can return to being on topic with no BS.

The longer this "Ip/is" buffoonery goes w/out a lack of description or video,the more I am inclined to believe there isn't much of anything special that is worth going to a seminar for (at least for any IMA'ist worth their salt). Had Dan come on here with a different approach and more info, I may have even attended a seminar if welcome. I am all for supporting other non-Mcdojo teachers out there, and potentially learning something along the way.

I am disappointed to see that given this thread is on the exact topic you wanted to discuss-you still won't bother. I say you take this opportunity to be on topic, friendly, and forget all the crap, we don't need it here, or anywhere. Besides, who needs the stress?

Best,

Gary

[Ian]

But what about discussion of IP/IS on an internal arts forum as has been requested a million times ... mainly by You, Dan and those who have had contact with him.
So far it seems to be ... 'hey why don't people mention this or that ...' When someone does the response is ... without fail ... 'There is no point talking about it'. ... or silence.

That has been my impression also. After all the requests to talk about IP, now we have an IP-only forum, and... tumbleweeds

No worries, there are loads of cool training tips here, and that's what it's all about! I've saved a few threads for future reference.

[middleway]

No worries, there are loads of cool training tips here, and that's what it's all about! I've saved a few threads for future reference.

Agreed!

I have nothing against anyone. I dont really care about who chooses to share or not. It would be nice if people did though, in light of constant calls for discussion.

Anyhooo back to the topic! i will try to take soem time to post some findings of mine in the next couple of days.

thanks.

[Iskendar]

Ok, I've read Interloper's post on the "lightest touch" thread (lamest topic ever BTW, I mean, seriously? you gonna get this from a bunch of martial artists?) three or four times now, and I cannot fathom what the fuss is about. What's to discuss? To recapitulate:

Intent, as such, is critical to internal body method for creating and maintaining all of the connections, movements and dynamic tensions/opposing forces that we exploit to create a unified structure, to absorb and neutralize force, and to generate and express force. We learn to wilfully and consciously use intent to establish a complex web of manipulations, from pressurizing-depressurizing the thoracic and abdominal body cavities to bowing the curves of the spine, elbows and knees and willing the transfer of kinetic energy from the ground and across the kuas and lower back, in a constant and fluid process.

I mean, what is not clear about this that you guys need to be ganging up on her like this? Y'all know what intent is (or should know anyway), she gives a list of things you can send that intent towards, either isolated in training, or all at once in use. It's been said before Dan uses fascia theory, so you know which those connections are as well: just read Myers. WTF do you want more? You want drills? You want to be taught over the internet? Or do you just want the chance to cut someone up?

P.S. I seriously do resent the cult remark. If there's any milieu that's cultish, it's the traditional martial arts scene. With Dan, you walk through the door and it's work work work from the get go, with palpable results and clearly laid out theory. No 'do the form and it will come in 10 years', no groveling at sifu's feet to get invited to become tudi and can get the real secrets, no 'this is just taught to one or two people', no ling kong jin, grain paths or any other bullshit. Just hard work, results and a hell of a lot of laughter.

P.P.S. I always thought The Distillery was a lame idea anyway.

[middleway]

I mean, what is not clear about this that you guys need to be ganging up on her like this? Y'all know what intent is (or should know anyway), she gives a list of things you can send that intent towards, either isolated in training, or all at once in use. It's been said before Dan uses fascia theory, so you know which those connections are as well: just read Myers. WTF do you want more? You want drills? You want to be taught over the internet? Or do you just want the chance to cut someone up?

Take it this wasnt aimed at me ... if it was ... re-read my posts.

i was looking for a topic dedicated to the interesting things said ... not a gang fight ... not to 'learn over the internet' .... but more interesting discussions.

more detail like HOW 'Intent, as such, is critical to internal body method for creating and maintaining all of the connections, movements and dynamic tensions/opposing forces that we exploit to create a unified structure'. Not to call her out on it but to have an interesting discussion on it.

cheers
Chris

[Iskendar]

I mean, what is not clear about this that you guys need to be ganging up on her like this? Y'all know what intent is (or should know anyway), she gives a list of things you can send that intent towards, either isolated in training, or all at once in use. It's been said before Dan uses fascia theory, so you know which those connections are as well: just read Myers. WTF do you want more? You want drills? You want to be taught over the internet? Or do you just want the chance to cut someone up?

Take it this wasnt aimed at me ... if it was ... re-read my posts.

No, it wasn't.

i was looking for a topic dedicated to the interesting things said ... not a gang fight ... not to 'learn over the internet' .... but more interesting discussions.

more detail like HOW 'Intent, as such, is critical to internal body method for creating and maintaining all of the connections, movements and dynamic tensions/opposing forces that we exploit to create a unified structure'. Not to call her out on it but to have an interesting discussion on it.

It would indeed be nice to have discussions like that without the <silly voice>"I demand an explanation!"</silly voice> crap. Though it is a difficult topic to discuss. For example: maintaining 6 direction intent while pushed...well, basically means, you imagine being pulled in 6 directions while ignoring the actual push. Not all that much more to say, is there? Similar with the anatomy trains stuff: you use your intent to feel the lines (training your proprioception), then use your intent to pull the lines on both sides (creating physical forces). Do it on multiple ones and you've got a tensegrity structure, which reacts on incoming forces automatically (if you can keep the intent up), which you then can manipulate with your intent, and so on... Again, what didn't you know already, and what more is there to say about it?

[middleway]

well, basically means, you imagine being pulled in 6 directions while ignoring the actual push

thats a good start you see!

Ok, so lets start here. Is 'imagine' the same as 'intent' for instance? Is it enough to imagine that your being pulled in 6 directions simultaniously and how will this affect the physical body?

Similar with the anatomy trains stuff: you use your intent to feel the lines (training your proprioception), then use your intent to pull the lines on both sides (creating physical forces). Do it on multiple ones and you've got a tensegrity structure, which reacts on incoming forces automatically (if you can keep the intent up), which you then can manipulate with your intent, and so on... Again, what didn't you know already, and what more is there to say about it?

Yes this is all pretty well known stuff.

My question is taking it to a smaller level to the connection between, imagine/mental process, intent and physical consequence.

IMO Intent refers to the process that links thought and action. It can be conscious or unconscious but it is not indecisive. It is the process linking the mind to the body, that pathway in the single system.

so the model is this:

Mind process > Intent > Physical Consequence.

If intent is this linking of mind process to physical process then the 'training' of the strength of intent .. by this i mean the clarity and speed of the connection between mental process and physical consequence ... is the interesting point.

How is this part of the process trained?

here are methods i have come across/found mainly to do with finding/recognising what intent actually is but also building the connection strength.

1) really moving the body in the mind ... not imagining but really trying as hard as you can to make the body move ... while holding the actual body static. observing the resulting body changes internally.
2) Activating all movement in solo drills like the ones i posted recently prior to the movement. You begin the entire movement mentally then observe the intent leading the body to act on the mental process.
3) static posture Multi directional training. Holding static postures and maintaining 6 directions with mentally lead movement in a static frame.

Good start point!

cheers
Chris

[Ron Panunto]

So in Taiji it is said: "First in the mind, then in the body."

[jjy5016]

So in Taiji it is said: "First in the mind, then in the body."

Hsing yi & yiquan do it in reverse ( no pun intended)

"First train the hsing, then throw it away, then train the yi, then throw it away so that there is no hsing and no yi but ever present hsing & yi"

Intent as defined in English and the Chinese term "Yi" are not necessarily the exact same thing.

"Intent, as such, is critical to internal body method for creating and maintaining all of the connections, movements and dynamic tensions/opposing forces that we exploit to create a unified structure, to absorb and neutralize force, and to generate and express force. We learn to wilfully and consciously use intent to establish a complex web of manipulations, from pressurizing-depressurizing the thoracic and abdominal body cavities to bowing the curves of the spine, elbows and knees and willing the transfer of kinetic energy from the ground and across the kuas and lower back, in a constant and fluid process"

This type of intent is is part of what one could use the term "yi" for but there are others as well. In both the basic yiquan zhan zhuang and the exercise in the video I posted in the Mechanics thread these conditions and more must be present for them to be done correctly. Rick Barrett's book "Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate" goes into some detail about using intent as in the quotes above to achieve this type of connection through the fascia. My ex-classmate who's taken numerous workshops with Mr. Harden even showed me something with the pointing of the index finger that's supposed to help with the intent. I'm assuming it came from what he learned from Mr. Harden. If I'm mistaken then feel free to correct me on this. Wang Xiang Zhai made a reference in one of his yiquan essays decades ago about using the forefinger. Not a bad method but certainly nothing new.

[Bao]

i was looking for a topic dedicated to the interesting things said ...

more detail like HOW 'Intent, as such, is critical to internal body method for creating and maintaining all of the connections, movements and dynamic tensions/opposing forces that we exploit to create a unified structure'.

cheers
Chris

Interesting thread. I do believe that intent is close to, or depend on, wuxin or what the samurai called munnin = "no heart". This is to have a calm focused mind. It's blank, no thoughts and no feelings are allowed to interfere. This state of mind was later referred to as wuji.

First, in order to focus, you need to be calm and control your thoughts. First then you can have real intent, intent that is crystal clear and razor sharp. so in order to practice intent one need to practice how to control the thoughts and feelings. Imo, this is the real key to develop real intent.

[Iskendar]

Ok, so lets start here. Is 'imagine' the same as 'intent' for instance? Is it enough to imagine that your being pulled in 6 directions simultaniously and how will this affect the physical body?

Well, imagining is what you do, but yeah, I do mean intent. Pretty loaded term, so I tried sticking to plain English It's not just imagination though, imagine a rope duck-taped to your chest being pulled forward. Imagine what that does to your body, and let it happen. Imagine a continuum of that along your front. Now you're probably starting to fall forward, so imagine the same feeling along the back balancing it out. Repeat along the other two axes, and your body'll start to feel quite inflated/expanding, making you a lot more solid and stable, without much localized flexing.
Note that this is not just Dan stuff, got a lot if this out of the Aunkai work, and I was probably already doing this before that, only paid much less attention to it back then. After all, it is pretty much IMA 101.

IMO Intent refers to the process that links thought and action. It can be conscious or unconscious but it is not indecisive. It is the process linking the mind to body, that pathway in the single system.

Damn, I wish I had come up with that...

here are methods i have come across/found mainly to do with finding/recognising what intent actually is but also building the connection strength.

1) really moving the body in the mind ... not imagining but really trying as hard as you can to make the body move ... while holding the actual body static. observing the resulting body changes internally.

That is a great exercise. Note that you don't hold back physically, like with isometrics, but mentally. Your brain simulates the motion with all associated feelings, but doesn't fire the commands to the muscles. Next step: hold...hold...hold...let go. Pretty spectacular ;-D

2) Activating all movement in solo drills like the ones i posted recently prior to the movement. You begin the entire movement mentally then observe the intent leading the body to act on the mental process.
3) static posture Multi directional training. Holding static postures and maintaining 6 directions with mentally lead movement in a static frame.

All good work. Some of your drills did seem fairly familiar, from your daito ryu days, I suppose?

[Iskendar]

Interesting thread. I do believe that intent is close to, or depend on, wuxin or what the samurai called munnin = "no heart". This is to have a calm focused mind. It's blank, no thoughts and no feelings are allowed to interfere. This state of mind was later referred to as wuji.

First, in order to focus, you need to be calm and control your thoughts. First then you can have real intent, intent that is crystal clear and razor sharp. so in order to practice intent one need to practice how to control the thoughts and feelings. Imo, this is the real key to develop real intent.

Personally, I think that's xin rather than yi. Though I may very well be wrong there, the xin leads yi bit is something I haven't paid all that much attention to, so I may very well be clueless there.

[middleway]

First, in order to focus, you need to be calm and control your thoughts. First then you can have real intent, intent that is crystal clear and razor sharp. so in order to practice intent one need to practice how to control the thoughts and feelings. Imo, this is the real key to develop real intent.

Sure i agree to an extent. What i would say is that all three parts of this system need to be trained as well as each other.

The body must be capable of fulfilling the vision of the mind
The mind must be capable of razor sharp clarity
The intent must be capable of linking these two with Efficiency

An animal can have great intent from its natural predatory instinct. Mind allows us to make a choice or bring intent under our control.

Cheers

[GrahamB]

Interesting thread. I do believe that intent is close to, or depend on, wuxin or what the samurai called munnin = "no heart". This is to have a calm focused mind. It's blank, no thoughts and no feelings are allowed to interfere. This state of mind was later referred to as wuji.

First, in order to focus, you need to be calm and control your thoughts. First then you can have real intent, intent that is crystal clear and razor sharp. so in order to practice intent one need to practice how to control the thoughts and feelings. Imo, this is the real key to develop real intent.

Personally, I think that's xin rather than yi. Though I may very well be wrong there, the xin leads yi bit is something I haven't paid all that much attention to, so I may very well be clueless there.

I'd agree with Iskendar - in IMA "intent" is more about guiding and moving what's 'inside' towards something using the mind. To be able to do that first you have to become familiar with what's 'inside' (standing exercise is the best method IMHO) and then you can play around with 'moving it around'. I agree it's very hard to describe too - but 'imagining you're being pulled in one direction but not actually moving in that direction' is about as close as I think you can get in words alone. It's not it, especially if you are just using imagination, but it's close to it.

Also agree with other posters here saying that this is not 'creating structure' - your structure needs to be there already - your structure is the vessel within which it moves. If your structure is not relaxed and aligned then it has nothing to move inside of - excess tension inhibits its movement.

So, how do you know 'it'? Hitting things/people is the only way I know. We do a thing with hitting a beer bottle with a cap on and full of water and knocking just the bottom out. I believe the actual physics process involved in popping the bottom out is cavitation (nothing mysterious), and can also be achieved by hitting the bottle with a wooden hammer (there are videos on YouTube), but it's the way you create the result that's important as a good test of whether you can use real "intent" in a strike or not. If you just hit the bottle really hard (using just "li") nothing happens except it really hurts your hand (a lot), or if you hit it REALLY hard the whole bottle breaks (probably along with your hand). If you can focus your intent through the bottle you can hit it relatively softly and still pop the bottom out (using Yi to deliver Jin). To me this never feels "crystal clear and razor sharp" - it's almost a bit dream-like and spacey. It's your awareness concentrated in a particular direction, but it's still open and aware.

For people that don't like these sorts of "circus tricks" there's always hitting people - you can feel the difference between a strike with just brute force, and something a little more penetrating that comes from what looks like a light tap. While hitting bottles seems to be generally frowned upon it has the advantage that it's a physical object that you can't fool with "mind games", or them being too eager to help you or make you look good. A bottle has no opinion on the matter, and also the only person you will hurt in the process is yourself

[middleway]

iskender,

Well, imagining is what you do, but yeah, I do mean intent. Pretty loaded term, so I tried sticking to plain English It's not just imagination though, imagine a rope duck-taped to your chest being pulled forward. Imagine what that does to your body, and let it happen. Imagine a continuum of that along your front. Now you're probably starting to fall forward, so imagine the same feeling along the back balancing it out. Repeat along the other two axes, and your body'll start to feel quite inflated/expanding, making you a lot more solid and stable, without much localized flexing.
Note that this is not just Dan stuff, got a lot if this out of the Aunkai work, and I was probably already doing this before that, only paid much less attention to it back then. After all, it is pretty much IMA 101.

Thanks for the explanation. easy to mentally visuallise what your talking about.... although the thought of ductaping anything to my hairy chest does fill me with a sort of dread!

All good work. Some of your drills did seem fairly familiar, from your daito ryu days, I suppose?

A couple are a influenced by them yeh nothing the same though as my CIMA has fed into those drills a lot so there is more in there. I only came back to what i did in DR recently and looked at some of the movements and postures with 'new eyes' so to speak. Just experimenting with things at the moment.

Interesting discussions arising ... hopefully we keep things moving with this topic.

Cheers
Chris