Holding postures

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Holding postures

Postby richardg6 on Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:01 pm

Any thoughts on combining zhan zhung with ding shi? I think it makes more sense to sink into each posture completely within 3-6 breaths then move on to holding and the 6 directions within an additional 3-6 breaths then move onto the next posture.

I do sections of the form this way but would like to hear suggestions.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby northerndevotee on Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:40 am

Well for me relaxing into each posture enables you to feel the chi movements anyway so no need to extend the time spent in each posture.
But for me ding shi wasn't a compliment to the form it was a prerequisite to learning the form. I spent 2 years practising it before joining it together into the form.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:01 am

Don't know exactly what you mean Richard. IThere are a lot different things labelled as ZZ. If you mean Zhan Zhuang from other styles, their principles might not work so well together with Tai Chi.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby richardg6 on Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:28 pm

Bao:

You are right. Not zz. I just go really slow and try to feel the various forces in play. Just read 意拳正軌
THE CORRECT PATH OF YIQUAN by Wang Xiangzhai.

Every day is a new one, thanks for your insight.

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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:17 am

I know very little about Yiquan. I might read the text, thanks for the tip. :)
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Re: Holding postures

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:57 am

Bao wrote:I know very little about Yiquan. I might read the text, thanks for the tip. :)


意拳正軌
THE CORRECT PATH OF YIQUAN
王薌齋 by Wang Xiangzhai [1929]

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... of-yiquan/
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Re: Holding postures

Postby origami_itto on Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:22 pm

Bao wrote:Some questions comes into my mind. The two that bugs me are: Why doesn't "Ding Shi" seem to be part of any modern Tai Chi practice curriculum? Are there many other training methods who are either lost or kept secret?

What do you think about this?


This seems strange to me because I didn't realize there was any other way to train.

The way I learned the form we practiced as a group to music primarily. Each movement was broken down into 2,4 or 6 beats with a specific "transitional posture" on each beat. The 150 posture form as a whole is broken down into the classic three sections, but section two is broken into two parts, and section three is broken into three parts.

A regular part of class was to play one of the six parts to a metronome holding postures for a specific number of beats, either just the formal end posture or including the transitional postures. In my own practice now I'll do the whole form whichever way I have enough time for when the mood strikes.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:58 pm

oragami_itto wrote:This seems strange to me because I didn't realize there was any other way to train.


My first five or ten years of tai chi I didn't know that this kind of practice existed. I know a lot of groups and schools, but none of them has ding shi as standard practice. There are standing postures, but not this stance practice that is made together with forms practice.

The way I learned the form we practiced as a group to music primarily. Each movement was broken down into 2,4 or 6 beats with a specific "transitional posture" on each beat. The 150 posture form as a whole is broken down into the classic three sections, but section two is broken into two parts, and section three is broken into three parts.

A regular part of class was to play one of the six parts to a metronome holding postures for a specific number of beats, either just the formal end posture or including the transitional postures. In my own practice now I'll do the whole form whichever way I have enough time for when the mood strikes.


Sounds fantastic. 8-) I've heard that music was a part of earlier tai chi practice and that they even had special instruments for just tai chi, wooden sticks they struck together to make a tone. I have never met anyone who kept this or any similar tradition. Using metronome sounds amazing, like a progression from this old method.

This reminds me about zen bells and sticks they strike together when they meditate. I wonder if these traditions have a connection and in that case how.

From what style and lineage does your tai chi come from?
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby origami_itto on Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:05 pm

Bao wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:This seems strange to me because I didn't realize there was any other way to train.


My first five or ten years of tai chi I didn't know that this kind of practice existed. I know a lot of groups and schools, but none of them has ding shi as standard practice. There are standing postures, but not this stance practice that is made together with forms practice.

The way I learned the form we practiced as a group to music primarily. Each movement was broken down into 2,4 or 6 beats with a specific "transitional posture" on each beat. The 150 posture form as a whole is broken down into the classic three sections, but section two is broken into two parts, and section three is broken into three parts.

A regular part of class was to play one of the six parts to a metronome holding postures for a specific number of beats, either just the formal end posture or including the transitional postures. In my own practice now I'll do the whole form whichever way I have enough time for when the mood strikes.


Sounds fantastic. 8-) I've heard that music was a part of earlier tai chi practice and that they even had special instruments for just tai chi, wooden sticks they struck together to make a tone. I have never met anyone who kept this or any similar tradition. Using metronome sounds amazing, like a progression from this old method.

This reminds me about zen bells and sticks they strike together when they meditate. I wonder if these traditions have a connection and in that case how.

From what style and lineage does your tai chi come from?


I study the T.T. Liang variant of the Yang Style and learned what I know of the system from Ray Hayward in St. Paul. http://www.rayhayward.com/. Ray met Liang in Boston and followed him to Minnesota when he moved. He is a much better teacher than I am a student and recently opened a new studio, so I'm sure he'd welcome folks for private lessons. He still works with Wai Lun Choi occasionally and has a lot to offer. I studied Master Choi's Xingyiquan under him as well for about a year (which is a bit different than traditional), but at this point I'm focusing solely on my taiji.

Image

As far as I know, Master Liang is the only one that put it to music. That's the claim within the body of work about it, at least.

He was an adamant ballroom dancer so he approached learning the form sequences the same way he would learn or teach any other complex choreography, by the numbers. We practiced as a group to the music, and did specific section or posture work to a metronome. Master Liang also believed that following the music was easier than following the other students to keep the entire class in sync and working on their form.

There may have been someone with a bell or stick previously to serve as the metronome, but prior to the spread of portable cassettes it would be impractical to hire musicians for tai chi practice, so I'm not sure about anyone else doing so. Master Liang's hired some to record the fifteen minute track we used in class.

There are a few compromises made in the performance with music in order to make it fit the beat, so we also practiced a range of variations on the form, three heights, three frames, smoothly, with ding shi, double speed, extra slow, left side, etc. The idea is that the form was a tool with many uses. Some times we might want to train strength more, some times we might want to get deeper into meditation or healing.

Form-wise, it's very similar to the traditional yang form. Even though Master Liang was a disciple of Chen Man Ching, he did not believe in practicing the short form, and we do many of the same postures differently.

He was also a high ranking official in customs in Taiwan and traveled around a lot, making a point to meet and study with masters all over. He encouraged internalizing the fundamentals and principles and making your art your own expression of the classics, learning from as many people as possible and incorporating what works for you into your practice.

The main form has 150 postures broken into the three traditional sections, then further broken up into two parts in the second section and three parts in the third section. I haven't counted the total number of transitional postures, somewhere between 300-500? There is also a complete set of weapons forms, though only the sword with tassel is done to music. Several Ta Lus and the San-shou.

I moved away so I didn't get the entire system, but the methods bear a lot of fruit. This was my only formal martial arts training and I've had to rely on it in real world situations and it works. I'm currently using the method I got through Ray to refresh my long form and then tackle getting back my weapons and two-person stuff.

This clip has a few pieces of the system and the background, of course, is the music we practiced to. I like it, but I'm working with a guy locally to write something of my own for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toxn_MIkCXs

This is an example of some applications. They're not a drill or combat, just the imaginary opponent you visualize while performing the form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWdtKMr-VNQ

I don't believe either of those videos is still available for sale.

Gordon Muir has put together, in my opinion, the best treatment of the lineage I've seen so far in his book Yang Style Traditional Long Form T'ai Chi Ch'uan: As Taught by T.T. Liang https://www.amazon.com/Yang-Style-Traditional-Long-Chuan/dp/1583942211

Lastly, I was going to put this in the meetup forum, but it bears mentioning here. I'm currently practicing with the Pease Park Push Hands group on Sundays here in Austin and love working with new people, if anyone is in town.
http://www.softanswertaichi.com/push-hands-group/
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:26 am

Thank you for the explanation.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:27 am

Bao wrote:Thank you for the explanation.


My pleasure, I believe Master Liang's contributions need a lot more visibility in today's IMA world.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby Ron Panunto on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Hi Origami,

I learned Taiji cane, saber, and tassle sword from Ray Hayward and some Bagua. He is a great teacher.
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Re: Holding postures

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:04 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:Hi Origami,

I learned Taiji cane, saber, and tassle sword from Ray Hayward and some Bagua. He is a great teacher.


Well met! I'm hoping to get back up for some refreshers next year.
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