Daito Ryu

[cdobe]

How do Daito Ryu practitioners develop their internal skill ? Stance work, partner exercises, movement drills ? Are there similar methods as in the CIMA ?

TIA

[kal]

A very good question!

Watch out for a book by Ellis Amdur which is hopefully coming out in the near future: "Hidden in Plain Sight". i believe he will be exploring this very question.

[AllanF]

I have a book called "The hidden Roots of Aikido" by Shiro Omiya. In which he states one of the fundamental method for developing 'ki' is the horse stance! In fact there are many times in the book when he talks about aspects of Chinese culture, Daoism etc. Which i found interesting.

My own taiji teacher says one of the most important things to effect a technique is, simply, timing. Which you can only get through partnered training. And of course CMA has this, spokes of a wheel as it were, different methods all going to the same destination.

[edededed]

That is interesting - never really knew what the Daito-ryu people did for their "internal" training.

[middleway]

there is work known as TenkoNoJutsu (if i remember correctly)

This are breathing, standing excersises similar to standing post work in CIMA which focus on development of the 5 gates. Lau gung, Bai hua etc.. Working individually with each gate then all together ... exchanging etc. Also this works the 'heavy dantien' of the style where the dan tien seems to always feel like its being pulled into the earth.

Also there are excersises specifically to work specifically with gravity, these are moving excersiese that incorporate dropping from certain positions, releasing etc.

Cheers
Chris

edit:

have a book called "The hidden Roots of Aikido" by Shiro Omiya. In which he states one of the fundamental method for developing 'ki' is the horse stance! In fact there are many times in the book when he talks about aspects of Chinese culture, Daoism etc. Which i found interesting.

This guy is actually quite low level apparantly. His book doesnt really reflect Daito Ryu technique. Just FYI.

[I-mon]

have a book called "The hidden Roots of Aikido" by Shiro Omiya. In which he states one of the fundamental method for developing 'ki' is the horse stance! In fact there are many times in the book when he talks about aspects of Chinese culture, Daoism etc. Which i found interesting.

This guy is actually quite low level apparantly. His book doesnt really reflect Daito Ryu technique. Just FYI.

that's my teacher! he would certainly never claim to be "high level", but he's an awesome guy with some great skills who teaches his few students for next to nothing (4000 yen per month). it was a real pleasure to learn from him.

also he said that he didn't write that book, some aikido guy (a westerner) wrote it (it's in english, Omiya sensei doesn't speak english) and for some vague political reasons they published it under his name. all the pictures are of his students though.

solo training methods were definitely lacking though, he had 3 seriously hardcore students that I met (one is on the cover of the book) and they'd all spent years doing CMA. one of these guys taught tongbeiquan (this was where i first heard of it) and he is still to this day one of the most skillful martial artists i've met.

[Bodywork]

Although there is much speculation about a lengthy history, most research-outside of the art agrees that the art of Daito ryu cannot be traced back farther than Takeda Sokaku (1859-1943) Sokaku was the teachers of Ueshiba Morihei (1915 to 1937) founder of AIkido .
There has been a series of revelations of late (from the second generation students) of Takeda doing and teaching extensive solo training specifically to change the body to create aiki, the cornerstone internal power of the art. One of his arguably best students, Sagawa sensei, wrote late in his career that Takeda told him to never reveal those aspects of the training to but one or two students. By the third generation students of the art it had become so diverse that it's sometimes difficult to call it a cohesive single art. Some teachers stress jujutsu, others, aiki. It would be a significant error to judge the art, by any one school. I would judge it by single people. As with all internal arts there is no promise as to who got it or not. Go feel them. There are very few students with serious internal skills that can be used outside of a defined kata and of those, fewer still with the ability to use internal power within any format. It very much needs to be judged by individuals. Case in point -If I had judged Taiji, Bagua, and Xing-I by some students and teachers I have met-I wouldn't be here, I would have mistakenly written off the body of the work as useless.
Here's another point. There are other arts in Japan with internal training; Yagyu Ryu and some schools of Yoshin ryu are examples. But you can't judge those arts by individual schools either. Yoshin ryu is all over the place and you have to be careful where to go and who to talk to. Some schools of Yagyu wonlt even know what the hell you're talking about. The Japanese are really weirdly protective and secretive of their inside stuff. You will meet whole schools of students-who suck-who will give you all manner of spin on their own arts-as they know them.

[Dmitri]

It's amazing just how many of these exact same points and sentiments can be expressed about taijiquan.

Some schools ... won't even know what the hell you're talking about.

[middleway]

that's my teacher! he would certainly never claim to be "high level", but he's an awesome guy with some great skills who teaches his few students for next to nothing (4000 yen per month). it was a real pleasure to learn from him.

also he said that he didn't write that book, some aikido guy (a westerner) wrote it (it's in english, Omiya sensei doesn't speak english) and for some vague political reasons they published it under his name. all the pictures are of his students though.

solo training methods were definitely lacking though, he had 3 seriously hardcore students that I met (one is on the cover of the book) and they'd all spent years doing CMA. one of these guys taught tongbeiquan (this was where i first heard of it) and he is still to this day one of the most skillful martial artists i've met.

Sorry mate, didnt mean to slight your teacher ... just what i heard on the grapevine .. ya know how it is. Certainly some of the images in the book look more closely related to Aikido that daito ryu ... but i dont know the teacher at all.

There has been a series of revelations of late (from the second generation students) of Takeda doing and teaching extensive solo training specifically to change the body to create aiki, the cornerstone internal power of the art. One of his arguably best students, Sagawa sensei, wrote late in his career that Takeda told him to never reveal those aspects of the training to but one or two students. By the third generation students of the art it had become so diverse that it's sometimes difficult to call it a cohesive single art. Some teachers stress jujutsu, others, aiki. It would be a significant error to judge the art, by any one school.

I totally agree. I think that the main issue we see in Daito Ryu and martial arts in General is politics ...

But the original question on Internal training in the system stands across all lines of the art.

It is easy to label Daito Ryu as one thing or another .. as JuJutsu or aiki or whatever. The full training is however a complete process of development ... from basics(jibengong), Pinciple through technique, Self defence and internal development. There are also various meditation and kokyuho methods associated with the system.

Daito Ryu is actually a very complete art .. but it is hard to see the underlying or underpinning 'stuff' when its covered in so much other stuff ... by that i mean all the hundreds of techniques ... If you can see them for what they are then you can get to the good stuff underneith them ... the underpinning concept of that set of techniques ....

This was one of the reasons i moved on from Daito Ryu to CIMA .... they go straight to the heart of the matter. Daito ryu goes to the same place ... but takes a much more concieled and indirect route!

For example my Daito Ryu teacher could hit with a force like Beng ... could meke your stomach turn from an inch away ... had arms as soft as cotton but bones undernieth that were like lead pipes ... he was heavy beyond his size and completely able to use gravity in the most efficient way i have seen ... That was just from Daito Ryu.

The internal work is there in the system .... there is just ALOT of other 'stuff' in the system around it!

Cheers
Chris

[I-mon]

Sorry mate, didnt mean to slight your teacher ... just what i heard on the grapevine .. ya know how it is. Certainly some of the images in the book look more closely related to Aikido that daito ryu ... but i dont know the teacher at all.

There has been a series of revelations of late (from the second generation students) of Takeda doing and teaching extensive solo training specifically to change the body to create aiki, the cornerstone internal power of the art. One of his arguably best students, Sagawa sensei, wrote late in his career that Takeda told him to never reveal those aspects of the training to but one or two students. By the third generation students of the art it had become so diverse that it's sometimes difficult to call it a cohesive single art. Some teachers stress jujutsu, others, aiki. It would be a significant error to judge the art, by any one school.

I totally agree. I think that the main issue we see in Daito Ryu and martial arts in General is politics ...

But the original question on Internal training in the system stands across all lines of the art.

It is easy to label Daito Ryu as one thing or another .. as JuJutsu or aiki or whatever. The full training is however a complete process of development ... from basics(jibengong), Pinciple through technique, Self defence and internal development. There are also various meditation and kokyuho methods associated with the system.

Daito Ryu is actually a very complete art .. but it is hard to see the underlying or underpinning 'stuff' when its covered in so much other stuff ... by that i mean all the hundreds of techniques ... If you can see them for what they are then you can get to the good stuff underneith them ... the underpinning concept of that set of techniques ....

This was one of the reasons i moved on from Daito Ryu to CIMA .... they go straight to the heart of the matter. Daito ryu goes to the same place ... but takes a much more concieled and indirect route!

For example my Daito Ryu teacher could hit with a force like Beng ... could meke your stomach turn from an inch away ... had arms as soft as cotton but bones undernieth that were like lead pipes ... he was heavy beyond his size and completely able to use gravity in the most efficient way i have seen ... That was just from Daito Ryu.

The internal work is there in the system .... there is just ALOT of other 'stuff' in the system around it!

Cheers
Chris

no worries man he's just a guy who knows some daito ryu. i think the point of that book was to show that basically all the techniques in aikido come straight out of daito ryu, rather than to present the deepest levels of the art, whether Omiya knows the deepest or how deep is not super important. also i think he studied aikido before he learned daito ryu.

the "underlying stuff" which Omiya taught was simpy "aiki-age", "aiki-sage", spirals, and force-reversals (i push and you push against my push so i pull your push, kind of stuff). the beng-like gravity thing you're talking about sounds like an "aiki-sage" punch.

i tried asking my teacher what was going on with the spine and dantian in the aikiage/aikisage stuff but he couldn't explain it to me, so we had to try to learn by feeling and seeing and then trying to do...as i said the only 3 students who were really getting it were the ones who had done serious CMA training. on the other hand it was great to meet Akuzawa, i think his approach is really excellent, straight up no nonsense spinal work you can clearly feel right from the beginning.

"straight up no nonsense spinal work you can clearly feel" is my thing at the moment.

[Bodywork]

This was one of the reasons i moved on from Daito Ryu to CIMA .... they go straight to the heart of the matter. Daito ryu goes to the same place ... but takes a much more concieled and indirect route!
For example my Daito Ryu teacher could hit with a force like Beng ... could meke your stomach turn from an inch away ... had arms as soft as cotton but bones undernieth that were like lead pipes ... he was heavy beyond his size and completely able to use gravity in the most efficient way i have seen ... That was just from Daito Ryu.
The internal work is there in the system .... there is just ALOT of other 'stuff' in the system around it!

Cheers
Chris

Thats why a lot of /most/ many people in the system are all over the place. Good luck in finding any cogency to the training method, school to school. Then within each school a direct path to the internals in any reasonable time frame.

i tried asking my teacher what was going on with the spine and dantian in the aikiage/aikisage stuff but he couldn't explain it to me, so we had to try to learn by feeling and seeing and then trying to do...as i said the only 3 students who were really getting it were the ones who had done serious CMA training. on the other hand it was great to meet Akuzawa, i think his approach is really excellent, straight up no nonsense spinal work you can clearly feel right from the beginning.
"straight up no nonsense spinal work you can clearly feel" is my thing at the moment.

Straight spinal work is only step one. Baby step beginning steps. Powerful though it may be there is just so much more. Sadly training by feel-is not a singular experience to just yourself. Speaking of the spine, most people I have met don't know how to use it, or even have the first clue how to move around their own spine without transfering weight to one side. Sadly there are some VERY famous teachers who quite simply suck. For those who have the eyes to see its rather obvious.
Aiki age is far more than how to use your spine, though it can be a driver. Aiki age is about intent in your body and what you are doing inside, the opponent becomes incidental. There are a plethera of ways to pull off aiki age from external to internal. thus the problem of learning it from the outside-in through kata. Interestingly enough, aiki age/sage, fure aiki and the spirals all involve a central internal training which simply allows them to happen, that can be trained separate from the kata in the system. The breathing patterns that happen later- add to the body work as well. Ark and Rob will tell you there is zero guarantee of meeting those with any power. I imagine its the same in the ICMA.

[edededed]

What are aikiage and aikisage (and fure aiki)? I can speak Japanese, so I guess I could translate them as "raise aiki," "sink aiki," and "touch aiki," but I can't guess much about them from just the names

[AllanF]

Aiki-age: a movement to raise the opponent on to his toes.
Aiki-sage: moves downward to break the opponents posture. The hand position kinda reminds me of Cheng Baguazhang dragon palm.

I am sure others with more knowledge on the subject will expand on that as i know nought on the matter.
Does anyone know of the internal training for Daito-ryu?
It sounds very interesting. If there was a instructor near me i would definitely be interested in learning it.

[Bodywork]

Aiki-age: a movement to raise the opponent on to his toes.
Aiki-sage: moves downward to break the opponents posture. The hand position kinda reminds me of Cheng Baguazhang dragon palm.

I am sure others with more knowledge on the subject will expand on that as i know nought on the matter.
Does anyone know of the internal training for Daito-ryu?
It sounds very interesting. If there was a instructor near me i would definitely be interested in learning it.

First up, Ellis's book will not be covering any details of the arts inner training, it is mostly about the historical connection between DR and Aikido and the internals of the Chinese arts and the possible cross over into the Japanese arts.
Aiki-age (rising aiki) has little to do with hand movements-that's just a wrist grab defense kata, it is far more complex than raising someone on their toes-the same with Aiki sage (sinking aiki) which is a crushing down weight that can be over, through, or suck-in , then over, pressing etc.. Fure-aiki is touch aiki, control of center at a touch- its complex/its simple. Anyway its all in the body and in training the body. Good luck finding a decent teacher, it is a small art, and good luck finding anyone who will teach you the bodywork.
Outside of the staid and rather stiff kata it can be devestatingly effective bodywork used in a freeflowing, fast moving formless fighing style. The internals fit in any grappling form-particularly an MMA format which is what I use it in.

[AllanF]

Thanks for the info. Very interesting, and as i said if i lived near a teacher i would check it out but i don't and i am happy with my taiji teacher.

However i found this from Kimura Tatsuo Sensei's book "Discovering Aiki: My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa".

"Another childhood memory I have is of my father often telling me stories of martial arts’ masters when he helped me with my bath.My father would say, "That martial artist expert is really amazing! He’s cutting down the enemy as soon as he comes to attack!" I would remark how admirable he was. I yearned to meet such a martial art expert. If I think of it now, I believe that is the origin of my interest in martial arts."

"Then a strange phenomenon occurred and my internal level of energy increased. It was not a normal state, perhaps something like the incredible power one has at the scene of a fire. It felt like energy was welling up inside of me and I began to feel inspiration by reading the notes that I had been unable to understand at all before and gradually came to understand their meaning."

"[A]ll high level people have physical strength. In Japan, the image of mathematicians as pale and weak exists, but that is not at all the case. In general, although Japanese have good ideas they do not possess physical power in many cases. Consequently, it happens that they do not have enough strength to develop their theories completely and this is accomplished by foreign people."

"Mathematics is research into natural phenomena using mathematics. For that
reason, thoroughness is important. Since you have to think rigorously, you
need physical strength. Of course, you needs a good brain to think, but if you lose your vigor, you loses the ability to do research. Therefore, it is often said that mathematics can be done only until one is 30 years old, and this might be the case. If you do only mathematics without engaging in any physical exercise, your energy may disappear at around age 30. If your lose your energy, it is impossible for you to do mathematics. Studying mathematics really hard is such a severe task that you must put your life into it."

"In mathematics, understanding concepts is harder than doing calculations. A person with mathematical ability understands this point immediately. Knowing definitions is not enough. You must be able to understand things intuitively. This is a kind of enlightenment."

"I first was doubtful when I went to meet Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei, a direct student of Sokaku Takeda Sensei. At that time, Sagawa Sensei was 76 years old and I thought that he couldn’t actually do anything because of his age...After talking with him for about two hours in his living room, Sagawa Sensei asked me to hold both his hands from above while he sat in his chair. I thought that since Sensei was already 76 years old and that if I really held his hands strongly it would be impossible for him to move, so I should be careful to be polite. Therefore, I held his hands lightly, and then suddenly Sensei said, "Is that all the strength you have? You’re pitiful!" I was surprised."

"I had often heard that Aikido was a spiritual, not a physical, martial art. In olden times, it was said that martial arts were based on the physical and then greatly progressed beyond that level. However, Sagawa Sensei told me that what is important is the body. So, in the beginning, I wondered whether this martial art was a low dimension. However, through experience I found his level to be very high. I was thrown without feeling any physical strength being used, something I had never experienced in Aikido. Because of this, in the beginning I was confused but I continued practicing this art thinking that Sagawa Sensei was completely different from other people."

"I gradually came to understand these things. For example, I continued to train my body for about 14 years doing the sumo exercise 1,000 times every day, or sometimes even 10,000 times, for five hours. I wondered what it was I was training. Then, suddenly, I realized that I wasn’t training my muscles, but rather something inside my body. I gradually understood that something very near the core of the physical body that is not the body was strengthened by doing the sumo exercise."

"Since I have done both Aikido and Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, I can see that it is really difficult to acquire effective technique by practicing today’s Aikido. The reason is that in the beginning, one can’t do anything at all. One needs to pass beyond the process of not being able to do something. Then one becomes gradually able to do things."

"I had determined never to sulk or become negative even when strongly scolded by Sensei by interpreting his action as a strong lesson. I also thought that I should have a clean mind when I met such a high-level person as Sagawa Sensei. The result of this was, for me, positive. When I heard Sensei speak, I listened not only to his words, but also tried to perceive his feeling."

"If you depend on muscular strength, it is physically impossible to throw more than two people at the same time when they really hold strongly. Even using Ki energy, I think it is impossible because your opponents also have Ki power to a certain extent. Without Aiki, it’s not possible. If you don’t understand Aiki to the point that you can completely change the conditions of your opponents’ bodies, it can’t be done."

"Sagawa Sensei showed me everything with his body. He continued showing me until I was really convinced. That was really wonderful. I tried to resist in various ways until I couldn’t think of anything else to do and had to admit defeat. I could say, "May I really resist?" and Sensei would say okay. This made me very happy. Meeting such a teacher made me happy. The feeling of satisfaction is completely different. Each time I felt a fresh sensation and I spent a happy 20 years."

"For me now, at least, Aiki is not only one martial art technique, but rather it is something unknown which suggests that the ability of human beings is actually far beyond that which it is normally considered to be."

"Another thing that Sensei said that left a deep impression on me was, "I feel that I have understood perhaps one third of the totality of Aiki." I imagine that Sensei, who was constantly discovering new things in Aiki, naturally felt that deeper, unknown things exist. Newton also said before his death that he was like a child playing in front of the vast sea of truth. I think this was not just modesty, but the actual feelings of people who are continuously making discoveries. Such people genuinely believe that many things exist beyond their knowledge."