Daito Ryu

[edededed]

Interesting post, but...

1. I do agree that one needs a certain kind of "energy" to do mathematics (as in a lively mind), but not necessarily physical strength (Stephen Hawkins, for example).
2. Interesting that ki (qi) is different from aiki here - so what is aiki, anyway? Is there a correlate word in Chinese (jin, jing, shen, yi, anything)?

[middleway]

However i found this from Kimura Tatsuo Sensei's book "Discovering Aiki: My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa".

I think a friend lent me this book. It was a very interesting read .... The way he describes how hard it is to 'get' what aiki actually is kinda highlights what i was saying about having to actively look or find the principles behind the set technique catalogues. I think if you stripped away all of the Kata etc In Datio Ryu you would end up with something like Akazawa's art (cant remember the name).

The internal Work of Daito Ryu is one facet. What i liked about it was that everyone i trained with got the same body skill, the same movement accuracy, the same power etc ... I did like how the system could accurately be passed.

I was lucky to have a brilliant teacher of course!! Anyone in the UK should really look him up. PM me if you are interested. I have moved on ... but still consider him one of my main teachers and someone with the highest level of JMA skill ...(especially in traditional weapons ... his Iai, kenjutsu and Bo Jutsu ... WOAAAA ... actually scary!!)

Regarding movement dynamics there was a practice called 'bushi-no-hôkohô' in the system I trained, which detailed the way Bushi moved in ancient times, focusing on the Hitoemi (one line) principle and use of gravity. This was also interesting work that developed a constantly sinking quality to all motions along with strong 6 harmony alignments ...

Unlike modern peoples, who walk with a swinging of the arms that places shoulders out-of-line with hips, the bushi were trained from the time of their first steps to walk with shoulders and hips in alignment vertically, allowing a sword to be drawn from any point in their gait. This manner of walking and maintenance of what Rod Uhler termed "the internal lines" of the body has profound implications for technique. The Hakuhô Kai believes that adaptation of classical arts to modern body mechanics destroys a priceless heritage, and Okabayashi Sensei is determined to preserve Daitô-ryû and Ono-ha Ittô-ryû in an unadulterated form.

taken from another forum.

Cheers
Chris

[Interloper]

"In mathematics, understanding concepts is harder than doing calculations. A person with mathematical ability understands this point immediately. Knowing definitions is not enough. You must be able to understand things intuitively. This is a kind of enlightenment."

-- Kimura

That's a valuable insight. Anyone can memorize theorums and forumulas, and use them to calculate. But you don't need to understand what they mean, just to be able to recognize which formula is needed for a given problem, and then to plug in the numbers. Intuitively comprehending something deep to the core is a much more complex thing, and not everyone can do it whether in mathematics or in IMA.

Takeda Sokaku obviously understood his creation, Daito-ryu, to his core. He produced a small number of students (to our knowledge), including Sagawa, who also deeply understood. Sagawa perhaps more than the rest. But by all observations, the existing Daito-ryu organizations today not only contain the stiff, formal katas that Bodywork referred to, but also seem very stingy in meting out teachings on aiki. But for a handful of inviduals today who both possess deep understanding and ability in aiki, and the willingness to teach it, it seems that the body of knowledge of internal development within Daito-ryu is in danger of extinction. And DR itself may become just like any other external MA, full of rote-memorized kata and techniques to plug into the equation like a memorized list of math formulas.

[Bodywork]

I think if you stripped away all of the Kata etc In Datio Ryu you would end up with something like Akazawa's art (cant remember the name).

_______________________________________________________
Actually you'd have mine. Ark's is a combination of several things. My body work is all DR used in combination of koryu and modern jujutsu

I was lucky to have a brilliant teacher of course!! Anyone in the UK should really look him up. PM me if you are interested. I have moved on ... but still consider him one of my main teachers and someone with the highest level of JMA skill ...(especially in traditional weapons ... his Iai, kenjutsu and Bo Jutsu ... WOAAAA ... actually scary!!)

________________________________________________________
Which is something else we do

Regarding movement dynamics there was a practice called 'bushi-no-hôkohô' in the system I trained, which detailed the way Bushi moved in ancient times, focusing on the Hitoemi (one line) principle and use of gravity. This was also interesting work that developed a constantly sinking quality to all motions along with strong 6 harmony alignments ...

Unlike modern peoples, who walk with a swinging of the arms that places shoulders out-of-line with hips, the bushi were trained from the time of their first steps to walk with shoulders and hips in alignment vertically, allowing a sword to be drawn from any point in their gait. This manner of walking and maintenance of what Rod Uhler termed "the internal lines" of the body has profound implications for technique. The Hakuhô Kai believes that adaptation of classical arts to modern body mechanics destroys a priceless heritage, and Okabayashi Sensei is determined to preserve Daitô-ryû and Ono-ha Ittô-ryû in an unadulterated form.

Cheers
Chris [/quote]
The bold was never proven true.
Sounds like you trained in Hakoho. Same side walking is and can be a powerful way to move, and some like it. It has signifcant structural weaknesses that can be taken advantage of for throwing and off-lining. Which is clearly demonstrated in the throwing waza and aiki movement. It's also slower. Were one to train the way we do, you wind up with students who cannot be thrown with kata, or with much of anything. hence...no more waza or kata that even remotely looks like that. Which is why they don't teach it.
I avoid it.
Moving by transfering weight in a non-dedicated fashion requires a movement around the central pivot. This is freeing and the inherint snking is supported by winding in conjunction with the union of oppositeds on all sides. It is what the winding and spirals in DR are about. It is also what some of the walking exercises and shiko were for. It is also quite porfound with a naginata or bo in your hands, or in cutting.
Central pivot makes someone very difficult to throw, while making it easier to throw others. It also avoids double-heavy or double wheightedness while being supported.

[AllanF]

A little excerpt from "Report on Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu" by Paul Wollos (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=242)

"Kimura Sensei met me in his office at Tsukuba University on February 27, 2001. After signing his record book (eimeiroku), I was invited to grab his arms. Kimura Sensei instructed me to use all my ability to resist, and only when I said that I was ready would he initiate his technique. I held my grip very firmly, yet with sensitivity, so that I could resist any movement quickly, right from the beginning (well, at least that’s what I thought). When I said, “I’m ready,” I was instantly thrown backwards onto a sofa standing in his office. I repeated my attempt many times, yet every time it seemed like my power or resistance was completely useless. It crossed my mind that my entire body refused to obey me. I could not resist at any time, I could not use any power. It seemed like all my power had disappeared, or that I had completely forgotten how to use it! Not only there was no momentum in my attack, but also the technique worked right against my applied power, without blending with it in a way typical of aikido. It was against any principles known to me. What’s more surprising, I could not release my grip to prevent the throw!"

"Next, I held my arms firmly in front of me and was thrown as soon as Kimura Sensei made contact, even with a light touch. I thought, “OK, what about soft grab, relaxed one, or even just a touch.” Kimura Sensei invited me again, this time to try any soft grip, touch his hand, or just softly grab sleeve of his jersey with my little finger and thumb. I did all this, attempting in many different ways, and every single time I was thrown onto the sofa. Although I could not feel any power being used, the impact of my fall was such that I felt hurt even though I was landing on a soft, comfortable surface. It felt like being thrown by the wind. Kimura Sensei then invited me to punch to demonstrate Aiki-Kempo. As soon his blocking hand has made a contact with my arm I was thrown backwards. The same happened when he instructed me to block his punch, which was slow, and easy to receive. The moment my arm blocked his strike, my feet left the ground. For the first time I realized that I had met with something mysterious in my martial arts research. I immediately knew that I was standing next to a real master. Although Kimura Sensei laughed and joked all the time (having great fun demonstrating his aiki), I could not laugh. The reason for this was simple; this encounter had a very special meaning to me, and I was deeply honored to meet such an extraordinary person."

"Besides myself, another two special guests were invited on that day. One was Laurent, a French student of Tsukuba University, the other, Japanese martial artist, Mr. Hasegawa (he is Katori Shinto ryu teacher, aikido 5th Dan, and was a champion of Saitama Prefecture in Kyokushin Karate). I remember that he possessed a very strong grip, and his stance was really strong. Yet, in the hands of Kimura Sensei he looked like a child. He could not resist any technique at all, and was thrown onto the sofa just like me. Then I was asked to push him onto the sofa (by holding his arms). I had really hard time trying to move him backwards. All I could do was just use physical power. Then Kimura Sensei told me to relax, and touched the back of my elbow. To our surprise, my partner immediately fell backwards onto the sofa. All this happened in a split of a second. On another occasion, Kimura Sensei touched my back, sending both of my partners flying (each holding my arm with both hands, resisting with all their strength)."

"Next, Kimura Sensei encouraged all of us to attack him. No matter what, we were thrown like pieces of paper, all at once. Sometimes we would be thrown into different directions, while in other applications we would land on top of one another. Kimura Sensei asked Mr. Hasegawa to attack him in kenjutsu fashion. At the instant of contact, aiki would be applied through any held object. Mr. Hasegawa strongly doubted that possibility. He aimed and hit swiftly. To his great disbelief it really happened, and he helplessly collapsed on the sofa. It was demonstration of aiki-ken."

"Following this rather exhausting experience we received an explanation of what had happened. It was the rare, mystical skill of aiki. Kimura Sensei is able to apply it on anyone, anytime, and under any conditions. Aiki always works. It was more than I wished for. Immediately I felt ashamed at being such a fool and thinking that by learning just techniques (the outer “form”, or “frame” of aikijujutsu) one cld promote Daito-ryu. The Japanese guest and I went to the dojo with Kimura Sensei."

[Interloper]

Allan,
AFAIK, Mr. Wollos is still studying at Kimura's dojo, and also is teaching some kind of Daito-ryu curriculum in Taiwan, where he also teaches some Chinese MAs, I believe. I don't think he has written any public articles about his continuing experiences in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, but I've heard from some people in Taiwan that it's not known to what degree he knows or has interal skills. I'd think that after 7+ years of sporadic training with Kimura, Mr. Wollos might have something. Or not, depending on how forthcoming Kimura has been in teaching aiki to a "gaijin."

[middleway]

It has signifcant structural weaknesses that can be taken advantage of for throwing and off-lining. Which is clearly demonstrated in the throwing waza and aiki movement. It's also slower. Were one to train the way we do, you wind up with students who cannot be thrown with kata, or with much of anything. hence...no more waza or kata that even remotely looks like that. Which is why they don't teach it.
I avoid it.
Moving by transfering weight in a non-dedicated fashion requires a movement around the central pivot. This is freeing and the inherint snking is supported by winding in conjunction with the union of oppositeds on all sides. It is what the winding and spirals in DR are about. It is also what some of the walking exercises and shiko were for. It is also quite porfound with a naginata or bo in your hands, or in cutting.
Central pivot makes someone very difficult to throw, while making it easier to throw others. It also avoids double-heavy or double wheightedness while being supported.

the idea may not have been proven true, it is however quite obvious in virtually all Koryu iai or kenjutsu systems. Okabayashi sensei also researched this very thoroughly. It is one of the key movement Characteristics of Tokimune Takeda in Okabayashi Sensei's view.

.. having trained Ba gua, xing yi etc since ... which do demonstrate the principles you are talking about here i am well aware of where you are coming form.

however, having experienced Okabayashi Senseis methods first hand the idea of it being slower or less stable is not aparant with him or his students. I would in fact say that the methods he uses are extremely stable and have good stable directional force and speed. also it is worth noting this line....

This manner of walking and maintenance of what Rod Uhler termed "the internal lines" of the body

The hitoemi principle is not simply about single sided movement. The 'central point' is maintained within this movement method ... and is used in essentially three ways.

1. movement of your centre around an external central point.
2. Movement around your centre as a central point
3. a combination of these two.

there is use of 'cross body' connection even in the Hitoemi idea. the idea is based around economic, centered movement by use of gravity ... certainly not robotic single sided motion. In Shiko the maintenance of the shoulder hip alignment is extremely obvious, i think this demonstrates the idea well.

I say this from no position of affiliation to his system ... i have not trained daito ryu for 6 years or so now.

happy training.

Chris

[Bodywork]

the idea may not have been proven true, it is however quite obvious in virtually all Koryu iai or kenjutsu systems. Okabayashi sensei also researched this very thoroughly. It is one of the key movement Characteristics of Tokimune Takeda in Okabayashi Sensei's view.

Well, I'm a member of the oldest extant koryu and no..neither I or others training in it all move that way. I also have some good friends who are among the highest ranked teachers of Koryu on the planet. They don't ascribe to it either and we have gon on in depth about it. I'd say, back to the drawing board with that bit of thinking. You might want to understand that "edo inspired samueye arts" are different than other samurai arts. Stating "Koryu is this" or "Koryu is that" can be problematic. You're not going to see an itto ryu exponent moving, cutting, or strategizing like a TSKSR guy, and them like an Araki ryu guy anytime soon.

As for Tokimune. He was looked upon as favorably in DR for having aiki (internal skills) as was Ueshiba's kid in Aikido. I'll let you figure that out.

.. having trained Ba gua, xing yi etc since ... which do demonstrate the principles you are talking about here i am well aware of where you are coming from
however, having experienced Okabayashi Senseis methods first hand the idea of it being slower or less stable is not aparant with him or his students. I would in fact say that the methods he uses are extremely stable and have good stable directional force and speed. also it is worth noting this line....
This manner of walking and maintenance of what Rod Uhler termed "the internal lines" of the body
The hitoemi principle is not simply about single sided movement. The 'central point' is maintained within this movement method ... and is used in essentially three ways.
1. movement of your centre around an external central point.
2. Movement around your centre as a central point
3. a combination of these two.
there is use of 'cross body' connection even in the Hitoemi idea. the idea is based around economic, centered movement by use of gravity ... certainly not robotic single sided motion. In Shiko the maintenance of the shoulder hip alignment is extremely obvious, i think this demonstrates the idea well.
I say this from no position of affiliation to his system ... i have not trained daito ryu for 6 years or so now.
happy training.
Chris

I understood that, Chris. I have had this discusson before. I've never said or thought they were robotic. Take out any insult factor- thats not my intention. It's the end state of power generation in each movement-(yes I understand it it can be fast) on a side. It coincides with the popular use of falling gravity and that shouder / hip alignment which is the problem to start with IMO. Here another thing. "seeing" a body end up with an external physical alignment doesn't mean the internal aligments are matching. It is what you are connecting and why. training to move and line up the hip / shoulder is great for a grappler. It's the way normal untrained people move too. It just means they're easier to throw. Hence the Japanese Ukemi / waza model. Think of what I am describing as anti-aiki and stop the teacher idea. A "F...k you if you try to throw me, I'm gonna throw you." model

Anyway, did you miss where i said that hitoemi can be powerful? I didnlt argue that. It's the reason a lot of folks buy into it. I'm not trying to convert you, Chris. Go for it bud. No argument here. I just know there are better ways to move that are fast(er) and more powerful without so much dedication and make you an absolute son-of-a-bitch to throw. In all the years i have been doing this -going on 20 now. I've never seen anything to change my mind. Everyone on the Japanese side keeps askng me how -I- move and to show...them, not the other way round.
Good luck in your training too.

[shawnsegler]

1. movement of your centre around an external central point.
2. Movement around your centre as a central point
3. a combination of these two.

That sounds like that wacky yinyang shape.

S

[Bodywork]

"seeing" a body end up with an external physical alignment doesn't mean the internal aligments are matching. It is what you are connecting and why.

Very true. Until I met a handful of people in the past couple of years who could demonstrate internal connection and why (following intent), I didn't really understand the "liu he" of CIMAs in any practical sense.

Now I understand it better but still can't manifest it.

Hi Tom
Hey...that was my quote!! not Chris's

[I-mon]

by all observations, the existing Daito-ryu organizations today not only contain the stiff, formal katas that Bodywork referred to, but also seem very stingy in meting out teachings on aiki.

not my experience at all. the pictures in omiya sensei's book are of some of the formal katas - but that was only a small part of what we practiced. omiya couldn't be further from stiff, he was in his 60's with a lean but super solid and floppy body with ridiculously heavy arms and hands. he would teach the formal katas of the aikijujutsu twice a week. kasai sensei was in his mid to late 40's and he taught twice a week focusing on rough fighting methods and ability or quality training stuff, loads of improvised aiki practice, and much more straight up jujutsu. no katas, unless we were practicing for embu.

but Omiya isn't part of any daito ryu organization. i never asked why. i didn't care at the time - i'd never heard of daito ryu before i met him, now i'm a bit more interested.


so who are the good students Sagawa and Kimura left behind?

[Interloper]

I-Mon,
As you said, Omiya isn't part of any DR organization. Organizations become status quo and tied up in procedure, rote curriculum, rank and ritual. We have to look to invididual practitioners to find excellence. And those individuals can not attain excellence while being bound to an organization.