Sung

[H2O_Dragon]

I recently started training Tui Shou again. Yeah, I could call it Tai Chi, I could call it Liu He Ba Fa, but in reality, I'm just doing push hands, not form, standing, or anything else. I'm also a brown belt in Judo now, which continues to be my primary art.

I'm trying to bring my Tui Shou into my randori, and for the most part, it works pretty good. However, Sensei made some comments tonight that really have me thinking. Here's the basic gist: You have to stay relaxed, but there are also times that you have to be tense. When you are relaxed, don't be too relaxed or you will have no defense. Then he gave me an example that made a LOT of sense. We take our grips, and Sensei comes in for Seio Nage (shoulder throw) nice and slow. He says, "You're expecting me to come in like this." Then, he explodes into the throw, and I go flying. He then says, "But in reality, that's how I'm going to come in, and if you're too relaxed, you don't have enough time to stop it."

With that being said, maybe we can get a few people to talk about their understanding and experience with the Sung concept before this thing goes BTDT.

[shawnsegler]

Motherfucker!

I totally summoned you.

Welcome back, Larry. It's been awhile.

Best,

S

[H2O_Dragon]

Why I gotta be a motherfucker? huh? huh? huh?

How ya been, Shawn? Has the uppity chi that was affecting this board disipated yet? I've been too busy to carouse the threads yet.

p.s. You gonna answer my question, Fool?

[shawnsegler]

You know I don't even know how to read.

Why you gotta make me look bad in front of everyone?

Best,

S

[H2O_Dragon]

C'mon now, you know how we do it on here. Shit dude! Who I gotta talk to to get my Great Old One status? I've been here since 1999, Bro.

[Ian]

CAVEAT: These are just my opinions. I'm not telling anyone what to do.

If you're too sung in the body, you give your opponent too much control.

For example if someone shoves you on the left shoulder, you have a few options.

A) You can dissipate it with a whole body wave movement and come in to strike with your right hand. But that gives your opponent control of your whole body, and if he's good enough he'll capitalize.

B) You could use a smaller wave and only dissipate with your left shoulder. Then use the same movement to strike with the left hand.

C) You could dissipate forwards.

'A' is being too relaxed.

See 0:44 and 1:56 for an idea.




Another example:

If someone slaps a standing RNC on you, he has control over a couple of points, e.g. your neck, your head, your hips. To get out of it as fast as possible you should affect (explode against) all three points at once. If you're too relaxed - I'm talking noodle arms - you won't be able to do it.


Correct me if I'm worng, but I think the tuishou strategy is too passive. I've never seen anyone use tuishou to strike first, or enter like a raging bull.

[shawnsegler]

That's because that should be relegated to another drill. They teach different things.

S

[Bodywork]

I respectfuly dissagree with your teacher, and I think I can say I know where he is coming from. He's wrong, but I understand that mindset.
I also disagree with the advice offered here so far.
Taking the three connections at once (the typical threepoint throw contact) and resisting is bad advice and further would, by it's very essence, defy a cornerstone principle of internal movement. You donlt attack the attacking kuzushi at once-you change it.
a) Were you exhibiting internal power and sensitivy then them getting the three point contact for kuzushi isn't gonna happen without a shit load of work. Why? your taking it apart and chagning it one at a time. and all along the path of attempts they would be exposed. And if they did dealing with them would never...ever...be done as a unit or set. You hide and remove them one at a time, or you "change" them one at a time so they never get kuzushi and they cannot make tsukuri, or kake. Exploding -at- them all at once is muscle boy judo. Judo (the art of pliancy or softness) as go-do (the art of hardness)
You might want to consider this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszi ... re=related
Review just how relaxed -he- is and how...the guy does not make kuzushi. Most in the know call it aiki judo. By the way, he-Mifune- was the *inventor* of BJJ's now famous triangle choke.
Now add more internal components and a more connected body
Having connection in your body creates a state of sustained central balance that is soft and resiliant and an absolute bitch to deal with. Speed in entry or explosive movement will not upset a soft connected body any more than a slow movement will. Further, the connection between waist and hips like in old world sumo makes your body so freakin resiliant and then explosive itself....all while splitting their incoming force that it defies the discussion of soft enough. Nothing I just oultines will take place unless you are soft, and soft is F....king powerful as well as fast
I woudl say he sounds like a judo guy giving advice on internal skills.

[bailewen]

Word that.

[Bodywork]

Yeah ...everytime i watch that video I want to bow to the little guy

[bailewen]

Fantastic demonstration of leading into emptiness btw at 1:58. I had to watch it 2 or 3 times. I missed what happened at first.

[bailewen]

You know it's also got me thinking a lot about my other big .. . .and I mean truly big...realization of the past few years. The one about stances. I kind of abandoned pursuit of "root" in the conventional sense. I finally really "got" that it takes 3 legs to make a table and as humans, we are always falling over, literally. No such thing as a stable stance. There is something that can be called a "root" but it is pretty abstract. Ultimately, all fighting is done standing on one leg. I thought the Mifune clip really highlighted that truth.

Also made the point wonderfully about softness and relaxation.

[Ian]

I also disagree with the advice offered here so far.
Taking the three connections at once (the typical threepoint throw contact) and resisting is bad advice and further would, by it's very essence, defy a cornerstone principle of internal movement

Are you talking about my post? Where did I say resisting?

[Bao]

He then says, "But in reality, that's how I'm going to come in, and if you're too relaxed, you don't have enough time to stop it."
. . .
With that being said, maybe we can get a few people to talk about their understanding and experience with the Sung concept before this thing goes BTDT.

If you're too sung in the body, you give your opponent too much control.

Sorry, but I totally disagree here. But I am not gonna state my belief as a "truth" or something I want to force on others. It just has to do with my own experience and that the very best practitioners I've met has been the most soft and relaxed ones. And this is is totally from a taiji-prespective. I know other styles have a different take on "softness" and "realaxation".

But sung has absolutely nothing to do with giving up space. It is actually the quite the opposite.

Sensativity is on the skin. This means that it requires a very light touch (this is especially important when practicing tui shou, or dealing with strikes, pushes and more) and you also need a very good sense of timing. The trouble is, I believe, that people rely to much on what they call pengjin, so they meet or touch the opponent with to much pressure. That means that they loose their best sensativity - why? Yes, because as I said - sensativity is on the skin- not on the muscles nor bones. You must try to use your skin only, not numbing it with to much pressure. If you are brave enough to loose the "control" that pressure gives you, and just have a very, very light touch, then your reactions in will be extremely fast. This is really what tingjin means, listening to force by touch.

The trouble is that it takes faith, courage and hard work to be able to learn in relaxation, softness and the light touch. It takes years and years and years of practice before you stop to tensing up and stop compensating your lack of technical skill, and sung, with force.

Taijiquan, especially, means re-learning of what everyone taught you were "correct" way of reacting and dealing with things, from where you were a small kid until now. So it is not easy, and it really takes - faith, courage and hard work to be successful in taijiquan - or learning the taiji take on sung.

[Ian]

If you're too sung in the body, you give your opponent too much control.

Sorry, but I totally disagree here. But I am not gonna state my belief as a "truth" or something I want to force on others. It just has to do with my own experience and that the very best practitioners I've met has been the most soft and relaxed ones.

The best practitioners I've met have been the most soft and relaxed, but they can become like steel in an instant... and revert to softness in blink of an eye.