Relaxation: Who really trusts it?

[velalavela]

I’ve been thinking about this ‘relaxation’ thread quite a bit. It makes interesting reading. Tai Chi push hands is a hard thing to put into words. It’s a thing you just have to do over and over again yourself and start to feel how it works. But you guys all know that already.

I’m not sure this post will add much to the debate, but here goes anyway.

I think all martial artists are aiming for that relaxed or ‘sung’ state.

Look at good boxers when they fight. It’s really the same aim for all of us.

I practice Tai Chi and so called ‘external styles’ as well. Hung Gar’s Iron Wire form is pretty much a Nei Gung form dedicated to training a person’s transitions from hard to soft.. hard to soft ..hard to soft etc….

Regards ‘noodling’ If this means just going soft with no redirection, no change of stance or no purpose, you opponent will be able to follow you in to your centre and be able to best you. If it is to slip a lock or rotate an arm out of a lock or a push then that to me seems valid. It depends on the situation.

Calmness (relaxation) is one of the 5 key points stressed by my GM Ma Yueh Liang. He also stressed ‘lightness’.

One thing some Tai Chi practitioners seem to struggle with is how to issue fajing (and when to do it).

My teacher uses the term ‘hardness is a sickness in your Tai Chi that you have to get out’. Saying the softness and lightness is one of the hardest things to get. So first stage we practice a lot of push hands to get ‘softer’ or more relaxed and sung.

‘Softness over comes hardness’ is the lesson we are all taught. But Tai Chi is also described as ‘steel wrapped in cotton’

The ‘steel’ is revealed when you fajin. The lesson I’m (slowly) learning from my teacher is the important thing is the timing. You have to feel their hardness and find their centre. When you feel your opportunity you have to quickly take it. If you are too late you have to wait and be patient. Isn’t it the forcing of fajing in a push or technique what we are trying to avoid?

So we are trying to hide our centre from our opponent by remaining ‘soft’ but looking for their centre. But at the same time we are trying to not waste moving with no intent while hiding our centre and not giving any hardness that our opponent can exploit.

7 of my favourite examples of youtube: These are not ‘contests’, but they are more than ‘demos’. To me they are god examples showing what we are trying to ‘get’ in our own push hands.

Wang Pei Sheng http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZ5tk_NlaY

Tung Ying Chieh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGfE6C18ePw

Ma Yueh Liang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk4jjrrFzlg

Ma Jiang Bao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxcaFlQKUKQ

Chen Man Ching ( pushing hands at the end) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCEXCHuNVZo and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClR6elwak4


Fu Zhong Wen & Fu Sheng Yuan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjSYTBbH2Rw


It’s a long mission/learning curve.

I guess the verdict is, yes I ‘trust relaxation’. (but Tai Chi is more than that)

Regards to all

[WILLIE]

o.k you asked what is "noodling" funny term!

this is the real stuff,not complete though but still better then the "comp" vid's i seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfTsNdn_HU

cheers

[WILLIE]

and hears another one,now these guys good,he has what this site seems to call "noodling" but he never uses it untill it's nessasary. so it's a hiden skill. now these guys can fight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh9lBC3NHac

[TaoJoannes]

o.k you asked what is "noodling" funny term!

this is the real stuff,not complete though but still better then the "comp" vid's i seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfTsNdn_HU

cheers

Eh?

hi guys!

i left a link to this vid on a site so expect to get in the mix,ha!

thanks for this great vid,good luck!
you'll need it with these guys they don't know shit!
peace

[WILLIE]

and one more,this one is all grounded stucture,but this guy has gone though the soft phase to get it.

i think you'll find from these 3 vid a full range of skills all the way from very soft to very hard.
is good stuff
peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXwVCjXSDSY

[Ian]

o.k you asked what is "noodling" funny term!

this is the real stuff,not complete though but still better then the "comp" vid's i seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfTsNdn_HU

cheers

lol that looks whack!

[WILLIE]

o.k you asked what is "noodling" funny term!

this is the real stuff,not complete though but still better then the "comp" vid's i seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfTsNdn_HU

cheers

lol that looks whack!

YUP it does but its like fighting a waterbed,later the skill is only used a little, the other guy try's to push you there is nothing there to push and he smashes right into a elbow.
works good

[bailewen]

Well that's pretty much what I thought everyone was talking about with regards to "noodling".

I'm with Ian on this one but don't want to explain myself because it is getting away from the topic.

[WILLIE]

Well that's pretty much what I thought everyone was talking about with regards to "noodling".

I'm with Ian on this one but don't want to explain myself because it is getting away from the topic.

hello: the first video being very (yielding)you will see many things said on this site about people just wresting and not using taiji. this yielding is the key to overcome that phase. 1

1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfTsNdn_HU


this video is a good taiji player using only structure which will have( no effect )on the first. 2

2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXwVCjXSDSY


thIS video in of a sifu who has both that are equally balanced. 3

3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh9lBC3NHac

i didn't feel that it was of topic as you asked to what it was.

these guys are from malaysia and thailand they do know their stuff well.

THIS VERY SOFT STAGE SHOULD BE PRACTISED FOR A YEAR,THEN LATER THE FORCES CAN BE REDIRECTED WITHOUT VERY LITTLE MOVEMENT. IN THE END YOU SHOULD BE IN BALANCE.

this kind of training teaches the body to defend itself without you!,then later you can find techniques that work for you.


YES I TRUST BEING REXLAXED.

WEATHER YOU AGREE OR NOT PEACE ,WE ARE ALL ONE!
CHEERS

[velalavela]

Willie gave this post and link:

and one more,this one is all grounded stucture,but this guy has gone though the soft phase to get it.

i think you'll find from these 3 vid a full range of skills all the way from very soft to very hard.
is good stuff
peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXwVCjXSDSY

Thanks, looks good. A student of Patrick kelly, and Huang Sheng Shyan?

[shawnsegler]

The thing about "noodling" is that it shouldn't be an either or. That's why you try and train slow and smooth and why you should train those components initially without concentrating on application. Training that way should give you a high enough degree of feeling that you are able to being to control the modulation of your structure like a dimmer switch rather than an on off thing and learning to actively relax as a pure movement drill allows you to gain a higher degree of doing it as a modulation of feeling rather than relying on an intellectual chain of commands.

That's why it drives me crazy when people look at standing or circle walking and say "what's the combat application". It's more like when you skip rope to work on your footwork in boxing. You aren't trying to visualize how you would be stepping in conjunction with technique most of the time. You just do it and feel for how to do it right and it just comes out.

So relaxation in my mind should be a dynamic thing and should be able to be applied with all kinds of different levels of hard and soft all over your body at the same time. The noodle should be more like an adjustable level of of taut elasticity.

At least that's what my current idea of it is.

Best,

S

[Sprint]

The thing about "noodling" is that it shouldn't be an either or. That's why you try and train slow and smooth and why you should train those components initially without concentrating on application. Training that way should give you a high enough degree of feeling that you are able to being to control the modulation of your structure like a dimmer switch rather than an on off thing and learning to actively relax as a pure movement drill allows you to gain a higher degree of doing it as a modulation of feeling rather than relying on an intellectual chain of commands.

That's why it drives me crazy when people look at standing or circle walking and say "what's the combat application". It's more like when you skip rope to work on your footwork in boxing. You aren't trying to visualize how you would be stepping in conjunction with technique most of the time. You just do it and feel for how to do it right and it just comes out.

So relaxation in my mind should be a dynamic thing and should be able to be applied with all kinds of different levels of hard and soft all over your body at the same time. The noodle should be more like an adjustable level of of taut elasticity.

At least that's what my current idea of it is.

Best,

S

I agree.

[Ben]

The thing about "noodling" is that it shouldn't be an either or. That's why you try and train slow and smooth and why you should train those components initially without concentrating on application. Training that way should give you a high enough degree of feeling that you are able to being to control the modulation of your structure like a dimmer switch rather than an on off thing and learning to actively relax as a pure movement drill allows you to gain a higher degree of doing it as a modulation of feeling rather than relying on an intellectual chain of commands.

That's why it drives me crazy when people look at standing or circle walking and say "what's the combat application". It's more like when you skip rope to work on your footwork in boxing. You aren't trying to visualize how you would be stepping in conjunction with technique most of the time. You just do it and feel for how to do it right and it just comes out.

So relaxation in my mind should be a dynamic thing and should be able to be applied with all kinds of different levels of hard and soft all over your body at the same time. The noodle should be more like an adjustable level of of taut elasticity.

At least that's what my current idea of it is.

Best,

S

Nicely put.