Relaxation: Who really trusts it?

[bailewen]

Show of hands?

Seems like most people around here don't really trust softness or relaxation very much. Most of the posters, even here on a supposedly IMA forum, are pretty damn convinced that softness is only good to a degree. I have observed a long history of posts which basically try to explain the whole "gang rou xiang ji" in terms that, IMHO, start with a personal experience and then try to find an explanation of the classics that fits with what they already know which is, again IMHO, contrary to the whole idea of "secrets" or "mi-jue".

In any case, rather that continue my own argument for what certain "songs" really mean, I'm hoping first to just sort of take a temperature of the room.

Who here really truly believes in softness and who believes that you can be "too soft".

Since this is my thread, first a rule of order . . so to speak. Please refrain from using the Chinese term "song" in your argument. English only please for this term. I can't force you all to use English on this topic but I can ask. I feel that this is a case where the use of the Chinese impairs clarity rather than enhancing it. Just plain English for this one.

Do you believe that you can be too relaxed or not?

[everything]

Sure. "Soft" and "relaxed" does not mean "limp noodle". The former certainly "works" in "soft" sports/arts like bjj. The latter - not sure what that's about. Not sure what you're getting at, but seems like you mean some of the misconceptions people seem to have?

[Ian]

Do I "really truly believe". Haha. Yes I do!

Can you be too soft. Yes you can!

[bruce]

in my opinion to understand and express tai chi chuan, bagua and hsing i you must understand and practice transitioning from soft to hard and hard to soft and changing anywhere in between.

i think the middle path might be necessary ...

before i started learning tai chi chuan i was not at sensitive to what the other person was doing and this was because i was tense and tight in the muscles in time i learned to soften up and now to a certain extent i can be anywhere in between depending on what is coming at me.

i have seen some ima people who i think are too soft and limp.

no i do not believe you can be too soft assuming that you are capable of being hard too.

[Interloper]

If you're talking about "relaxation" as in being limp like a noodle, I wouldn't trust it. Give me the relaxation that means you are soft on the "outside," not flexing your muscles, but are power-generating like hell on the inside through sublte internal fascia-skeletal manipulation, driven by mental intent.

Too many people think "relax" means to go limp like you're on Quaaludes. Or to attain some peaceful state of mind and body. The relaxation of a martial body is a condition you develop into yourself, to be able to let go of flexing and instead channel both structure and power through means other than your striated muscle tissue.

[bruce]

Too many people think "relax" means to go limp like you're on Quaaludes. Or to attain some peaceful state of mind and body. .

there may be a time and place to be a limp noodle like you are on ludes. if you hit me in the solar plexus and i am not limp like a noodle i will get the wind knocked out of me.

[cerebus]

Softness only works if you have truly become skillful and comfortable in the physical techniques and tactics of your art. The only arts I myself am truly able to be completely relaxed in are boxing and kickboxing (but mostly boxing), because my training in boxing began when I was 13 and continued until I was 18, training twice a week every week for 8 months each year, sparring at least 2 or 3 people each training session (3 three-minute round each person) trying to knock each other out.

When I try (and I do really try) to embody the techniques and tactics of other arts which I've trained for a lesser amount of time (as I tried in my recent Lei Tai matches), I tend to be too stiff and tense. The one exception is when I use my Shaolin/ Northern Mantis. The reason for this is that the punching techniques and movement patterns are very similar to my boxing training, and the kicks are similar to my kickboxing, so the transition is easier for me.

That's why I'm thinking of sticking with my Mantis/ Shaolin when I train for Lei Tai matches. I'm planning on fighting for the USKSF United States Northern Regional Championship in May, then fighting for the International Championship again in July. This time I'll be less focussed on "style" and more focussed on "fighting".

I remember when I was training as a boxer, the one thing that I heard from my trainer more than ANYTHING else was "Relax!". Boxing and kickboxing taught me how to relax while fighting.

[cerebus]

I've seen boxers just messing around in sparring matches with Tae Kwon Do guys who had only non-contact sparring experience, and the boxers were able to be very "limp noodle" relaxed and totally beat the HELL outta the TKD guys.

I've also heard stories about Peter Ralston (world Kuoshu full-contact champion and instructor to one of my instructors) beating the crap outta challengers back in the '70s using complete "limp-noodle" relaxation (Ralston was apparently all about extreme relaxation in combat)...

[bailewen]

Ian,

Thanks for being honest and straightforward about your views. I disagree but I respect your opinion on this.

Bruce,

I kind of want to let this thread spill out a bit more (if it does) before I comment on your first post.

Troy,

Isn't that ironic.You are softest when applying "hard" arts. lol. I guess that's how it is sometimes. There's definately some interesting nuggets of truth in your experiences there. You've really named a few of the things I was thinking about. I see you that you do agree that it does work...even if you put some specific provisions on that. (expereince, comfort level etc.) At least we agree on what the best stuff should look like.

Interloper and everything (since you both seem to be raising the same issue),

Why do you suppose "soft" or "relaxed" are equated in most peoples minds with "limp". We have different words for the in English. A quick check on dictionary.com reveals that neither "soft" nor "limp" refer to each other in the thesaurus. So they are definitely not synonyms. Why conflate the two ideas?

[klonk]

The trouble is when you tell Americans to relax, they (we) think about sleeping in a hammock, or being really boozed, or afterglow cuddling, or something like that. The problem is semantics between languages. The concepts of languor and laziness lurk around the connotative fringes of "relaxation."

If you are relaxed like a boiled noodle, or a boned fish, your muscles take an instant to power up again and act. That is a moment you do not have, if your purpose is self defense. I base my remarks here entirely on physiology. If you are in too-relaxed mode, you cannot take the preemptive action that is so valuable in self defense.

[Interloper]

Using just enough "muscle" to hold a limb, etc. in place is one thing, flexing is another. Flexing makes you stiff and rigid, and slows you down -- you have to "let go" between flexing in order to move, another moment you can't afford to lose. And, a stiff body can't transmit or utilize energy well. Maintaining structure while in motion and -not- flexing, means that your muscles retain their potential energy; meanwhile, other reactive/connective tissues in your body are doing a yeoman's job of keeping your body together and helping you to move as one unified force. All this while your muscles are not flexing.

[bailewen]

klonk,

I think the exact same trouble occurs with Chinese students. I have seen plenty of Chinese students in Xi'an, when told to RELAX! just go limp. I really don't think there's anything cultural about it. That's why I wanted to avoid the Chinese terms. I think that they just disguise the issue.

[cerebus]

One of the best lessons in relaxation that I ever learned came from my training in boxing (many thanks to my trainer at the time, John Wood). I was made to put on 16 oz boxing gloves and stand in front of a punching bag in a squared stance (feet parallell, about shoulder-width apart) and was told to just punch the "Everlast" logo in front of my nose non-stop (not terribly HARD, just non-stop and FAST) for one 3-minute round. I was given a 30 second rest and made to do the same thing for a second round, but told to hit a little harder. Then another 30 second rest. Finally for the 3rd round my trainer was constantly yelling for me to hit "HARDER!". Of course by this time the muscles of my arms and shoulders were just jello (or "limp noodles") and the only way for me to hit with ANY kind of force was to whip my waist and just let my arm slither out like a rope with a rock tied to the end. Ultimate "limp noodle" relaxation AND whole-body relaxed power in one.

The appelation of "internal" or "external" to any martial art is inaccurate. There is no Yang without Yin, and vice-versa...

[klonk]

klonk,

I think the exact same trouble occurs with Chinese students. I have seen plenty of Chinese students in Xi'an, when told to RELAX! just go limp. I really don't think there's anything cultural about it. That's why I wanted to avoid the Chinese terms. I think that they just disguise the issue.

Aha! I had been informed that the trouble was the word, the one that is not to be named, which sounds a little bit like like the English word for vocal music, or having made such music, was just that we didn't understand the subltle concept hidden in the Chinese word. Thanks a million. If Chinese students don't understand the subtlety either, I feel much better.

[bruce]

Bruce,

I kind of want to let this thread spill out a bit more (if it does) before I comment on your first post.

cool ... i will check back later ...