Relaxation: Who really trusts it?

[Darthwing Teorist]

limp noodle is pretty definitionally a violation of proper structure. You can be relaxed and use correct form at the same time, but limp noodle implies you move whereever moved, etc.

IME, relaxation is a matter of good structure, that is maintained through relaxation and tension at juuust the right places.

[Bao]

Which is...exactly...why noodling will not help. Anyone with any level of knowledge will folllow a noodler into his body. Noodling is a badge...of a lack of understanding.
the same energy to noodle is the same evergy to cause change in their incoming force, in the same time frame. Noddling against a a low level guy willl maybe create a pause. Against a good player it will get you owned.
Ya know the inverse of all of this is the total equation.
Noodling to incoming or pulling force...does crap with a more experienced player.
So adding to it or changing the force of a better player wth it...does crap.
So for me ...noodling-is- crap.

IMO since ther energy is the same, the time frames are the same, then moving in any manner without connection is pretty much a waste of time and opportunity.

If you are a total noodle, empty without control, I do agree. But you can empty your arms and still keep control of your center. A good player, like my teacher, you can not follow him, he will not be owned, just continue to lead you into emptiness. And at the same time, he will follow your structure and flow in like water. He will feel like a noodle and appear totally limp, yet he remains excellent control. . . . I guess this is what italians call "al dente".

[Bodywork]

I would never call taking power out of my arms, or keading someone into a hole...noodling. Those I have met who "noodle" or who are noodles had a very limited idea of connection.
Since by you describe your teacher as having it-I wonder if he would consider leading...noodling? Maybe we're just discussing semantics.

[H2O_Dragon]

I would never call taking power out of my arms, or keading someone into a hole...noodling.

That's funny, cause that's exactly what I've been trying to describe to you as noodling.

[Bodywork]

Hey, I keep allowing for semantics, but I'm not reading much substance in a response.
I've just never heard or seen someone championing "noodling." Noodling was always a sign of low level skill.
Having empty arms because you have no ability to connect to them-so you hide your center from attack through lazy arms - is quite different then having a seriously connected body and leading into holes with thoroughly connected bodywork. The quickness of change, from leading to a direction is fast BECAUSE of a connected limbs-to-body use of the arms. Inversely the hole has less substance or potential to fall into because the noodler is only "letting" the push of the opponent die away. No one worth his salt is going to lose his balance from pushing. You don't need to. Their weight transfer or emanating never goes past their balance point. So by and large, and at best...it's all low level defense. Connectedness lets the arm that's leading become a pull or a direction change because it never lacked connection. Further the leading empty side is supported by the positive side. so again the body remains in balance; positive and negative. It's never empty.
That said there are a lot or people who get messed up with their notions of connectedness and arm and shoulder involvement' from stiff arm judo and jujutsu (who call it strong) to noodling players who call -that- soft. Since neither demonstrate what we should all be seeking move from the center, control of the center, and change - both people are easy to blow through and own.

[Walk the Torque]

Wow I've missed so much of this thread, but i'd have to say I trust relaxation implicitly. Through relaxation, or the steadfast clinging to this ideology, I have fostered skills of striking power and speed of motion that I sincerely doubt I would have found otherwise.

The trick is, how to maintain relaxation with all the other requirements of getting the job done.

In terms of keeping the mind relaxed and focused, well only man hours and experience can help there. When speaking of body mechanics, repetition and circular motion are always helpful.

However, operating from the centre seems to be of the upmost importence in maintaining a balance between strength and softness (well at least in this moment in time )

[H2O_Dragon]

Hey, I keep allowing for semantics, but I'm not reading much substance in a response.

That's cause Im too lazy to type a long response. But for someone who's allowing room for semantics, you sure are hung up on a Word. Just for the record, the only place I've seen the word 'noodling' used is on this forum. It's not a term I learned from my teachers.

I'm not sure where this lecture on 'connection' comes from, as I've never even mentioned it. But yeah, you always maintain connection, and yeah, you still maintain a connection when you 'hide your center', which is the term I was taught. So I hope you're not trying to spin what I'm saying is giving up root or breaking connection, cause that's not the case.

[Bao]

I do think there is a problem with semantics here. People have different names for different things. Some people will call "noodeling" a loss or bad understaning of shen fa. Some people will say that it is a seemingly collapsing of structure, not totally but partially, and that it is a most practical method in certain situations. If the word is a problem, then let us put away the word and discuss useful methods instead.

[Muad'dib]

I concur.

[WILLIE]

Hey, I keep allowing for semantics, but I'm not reading much substance in a response.
I've just never heard or seen someone championing "noodling." Noodling was always a sign of low level skill.
Having empty arms because you have no ability to connect to them-so you hide your center from attack through lazy arms - is quite different then having a seriously connected body and leading into holes with thoroughly connected bodywork. The quickness of change, from leading to a direction is fast BECAUSE of a connected limbs-to-body use of the arms. Inversely the hole has less substance or potential to fall into because the noodler is only "letting" the push of the opponent die away. No one worth his salt is going to lose his balance from pushing. You don't need to. Their weight transfer or emanating never goes past their balance point. So by and large, and at best...it's all low level defense. Connectedness lets the arm that's leading become a pull or a direction change because it never lacked connection. Further the leading empty side is supported by the positive side. so again the body remains in balance; positive and negative. It's never empty.
That said there are a lot or people who get messed up with their notions of connectedness and arm and shoulder involvement' from stiff arm judo and jujutsu (who call it strong) to noodling players who call -that- soft. Since neither demonstrate what we should all be seeking move from the center, control of the center, and change - both people are easy to blow through and own.

interesting
cheers

[somatai]

rock on WILLIE!

[shawnsegler]

S- kicks back and cracks yet another beer.

[WILLIE]

S- kicks back and cracks yet another beer.

i got surprizes for that big boy,problem is he's real good and got 70lbs on me.

no joking now that guys real good! i met him once.

everything he says is just about right,but he has never seen the other side by someone who's good at it.

really, you could feel that guys intent from several feet away,scary stuff! no joking!

cheers

[Interloper]

Willie,
There are much smaller people who can do the same thing as "big guys." True, body mass helps, but I've seen people with much less weight on them toss 300 lb. bruisers with ease. It ain't all about size.

[bailewen]

"Noodling" is like a "sickness" in the same way that double weightedness or lack of differentiation between yin and yang. It's sort of the push hands equivalent of swinging wildly. It can work on a lesser skilled player because it's kind of random and unpredictable and is at least better than freezing up. It's a kind of "throw spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks" way of attempting to neutralize a push.

By way of comparison, one of the differences between a master chess player and a random amateur is that the master never makes a move that does not accomplish something. There are no wasted moves. In push hands it is the same. There should be no motion that does not accomplish something. Shifu has been on my case particularly over this issue recently. He pushes, I noodle, he adjusts and points out that, "Wow...that was like, 2 whole changes to neutralize my one single change." ie. It's really really slow. Noodling is flailing about for an answer to the "question" posed by the incoming jin. If you really understood the jin, there would be no need to noodle. You would just change once rather than a whole series of times.

That's my take on "noodling".