Is Wing Chun an IMA?

[GrahamB]

"One thing that the “Ip Man” branch of Wing Chun emphasizes is the possibility of multiple attackers scenarios. When modern teachers in this lineage discuss self-defense and the sorts of scenarios that concern them, an ambush by multiple attackers is always at the top of their list. A great visual example of this can be found in the 2011 series Fight Quest. In the second season of this show the hosts traveled to Hong Kong to shoot a documentary about modern Wing Chun training.

In an attempt to better explain and illustrate what Wing Chun was all about (and to create some good TV) one of the local instructors who served as their host for the crew staged a mock street ambush involving a dozen attackers trapping the star of the show in an alley. His larger point was to demonstrate the sorts of tactical problems that are central to this style. Much of modern Hong Kong style Wing Chun is actually built around these concerns, often in ways that are so subtle that they can easily be missed.

For instance, the art’s narrow footwork, backwards leaning stance and emphasis on maintaining a wide field of vision are all things that originate from its concern with the idea that one might have to face more than one attacker. Its strategy of quickly disabling opponents, dislike of submission holds and emphasis on staying off the ground (even when it would be to your immediate advantage to take a weaker opponent down) all revolve around a single fear. The worry is that while you hold an opponent, or grapple with them on the ground, it will be impossible to see their compatriots who are about to smack you upside the head with a bar-stool."

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/1 ... le-part-2/

[erniewong]

Hi there. I just wanted to add my opinion, no disrespect to anyone.

I tend to disagree with Wing Chun dealing with multiple attacker scenarios. It's great for marketing but not realistic.

My Sifu was a maximum security prison guard for 20 years and was involved in subduing a few prison riots where guards were killed. He had to deal with multiple attackers and said that that kind of thinking was kind of dangerous. Just learn to deal with one attacker at a time.

The reason for not grappling and getting things over with quickly is one of the main principles of the system - economy. In our lineage, we want to save time and energy. Economy of time, energy and motion is integral. It kind of shows in our limited number of techniques and forms. We only use what's necessary to achieve the maximum results.

A friend of mine shared some things from stuff he'd read in China. He said that Wing Chun is a mixed martial art. It was designed by revolutionaries and spies. They needed to create a system that could be learned quickly and was effective. The people who were high level masters were too old to infiltrate the qing government. And most martial arts systems took too long to master. So the leaders of the anti government revolutionaries banded together to create Wing Chun. That's why there are elements of White Crane, Snake, and maybe Xingyi and Bagua. Then legends were created around it to hide its effectiveness by saying a woman created it.

This origin story sounds very similar to Praying Mantis, Choy Lee Fut and even Taiji.

Another thing he read was that these spies often carried out assassinations. People had to be killed quickly so no wasting time. Another reason was that the cities and villages in the south had narrow streets and alleyways. Whereas the north didn't. So the horse was due to environmental factors. Another explanation was that the Wing Chun system was further developed by people on the red junks which also had very narrow walkways.

Another explanation was that most of the systems used to create Wing Chun were taken to counter martial arts of the North, which had characteristically larger movements. The manchurians were from the north and employed many high level martial artists such as the Yang and Wu family of Taiji and Dong Haichuan of Bagua. Sometimes the spies would lead their targets into alleyways and small streets to restrict their targets range of movements but the Wing Chun guy had full use of their system.

I like reading and hearing all of these stories. Sharing stories is fun!

But that's all they are. I don't know why Bagua can have X amount of lineages all with different characterisitics, the same with Xingyi and Bagua and they can all get along. But in Wing Chun, the ego is stronger non yielding. I've met quite a few lineages and they all kind of think theirs is better or its not the true way Ip Man transmitted it or something. That ego thing seems very Waijia to me. Taiji guys I knew in Shanghai were so laid back and kind of accepting of everything. 舍己从人 principle really permeated into their daily lives, the true embodiment of Taiji. Bagua seems to also not face things head on with their incredible footwork walking that circle. Which seems like looking.at the circle of life letting things roll off of them. Xingyi which is more direct but maybe their wanting to get the level of Huajing tends to soften them over time. But a lot of Wing Chun guys resist.

Anyway Sorry for the last bit of ranting, just want everybody to get along and learn more instead of speculating.

[IMAS]

The design of the Wing Chun forms is great for alley fighting or in an enclosure. Able to lean on a wall to fight is an advantage but this got nothing to do with a leaning back stance. The Wing Chun stance is like any stance required to do one legged techniques quickly and turning within 180 degrees from side to side, etc. The character two (二)stance is the same as the inward character eight (八) stance of Baguaquan with the same degree of flexibility except it is practiced as a static posture as well for internal training.

[I am...]

I don't know why Bagua can have X amount of lineages all with different characterisitics, the same with Xingyi and Bagua and they can all get along. But in Wing Chun, the ego is stronger non yielding. I've met quite a few lineages and they all kind of think theirs is better or its not the true way Ip Man transmitted it or something. That ego thing seems very Waijia to me. Taiji guys I knew in Shanghai were so laid back and kind of accepting of everything. 舍己从人 principle really permeated into their daily lives, the true embodiment of Taiji. Bagua seems to also not face things head on with their incredible footwork walking that circle. Which seems like looking.at the circle of life letting things roll off of them. Xingyi which is more direct but maybe their wanting to get the level of Huajing tends to soften them over time. But a lot of Wing Chun guys resist..

Is it possible that this accepting attitude has lead in part to the current situation? Its my impression that Bagua, Tai Chi, and (to a lesser extent) Xingyi seem to have a few very powerful exponents and a huge majority that could not use the art effectively.

When you remove quality control, things often devolve quickly.

[windwalker]

what situation?

[erniewong]

I am...

I think a whole community here on RSF will disagree. I studied Wing Chun for years. Was a bit cocky and thought Wing Chun was the best. But the more people I've met the more humble I got.

I've met a few guys who do Wing Chun who were excellent. I've also met IMA guys who were excellent also. I met a Shanghai Xinyi Liu He (Shi Da Xing) guy who was 70, a heavy smoker and was a bag of bones. He showed me a few applications and I blinked and missed it. He was that fast and the guy he showed it couldn't see what happened either.

I think a lot of people who do IMA are looking for other things than combat ability or proficiency. We've seen it on many boards. A lot of them do IMA for health purposes mainly. Others are interested in the mystical aspect such as internal alchemy. Other seek the spirituality aspect as well. Guess what, the IMAs can offer that. Whereas Wing Chun doesn't. People who usually do Wing Chun are usually interested in something efficient and combat oriented.

But a lot of people also look for combat effectiveness in the IMA who are very successful. Especially the ones who are looking for that aspect and don't get sidetracked.

There are stories on other forums that dispute the combat effectiveness of Wing Chun as well. Because a bunch of Wing Chun guys get sidetracked as well. Because their egos get in the way. They think that the principles of Wing Chun are so advanced that they don't practice enough.

So there's no way to measure what you said, in the end it's the person not the system. Not to open up a can of worms but, a lot of people use MMA effectiveness as a mark of combat effectiveness, which I don't agree with. So far neither IMA or Wing Chun have many exponents in these kind of events. So are we to say that proves anything?

So to each their own. As long as you enjoy it and are happy with the results, keep doing it. Otherwise, don't rationalize. Examine your own deficiencies not of the system. Then train harder. If all else fails, change the system you're doing.

Back on Topic:

Mike K. from this board in the UK has done IMA and now fully teaches Wing Chun. I bet he can do a great comparison or illuminate us better. But I dunno the guy.

He's mentioned 5 principles of the Wing Chun Mother Stance which was his topic. I think those 5 are very close to the principles found in Taiji.

Using pinyin here - Luo Ma, qian shi, ting yao, mai zhou and deng tou.

Luo ma deng tou is basically xu ling ding jing. Mai zhou is basically drop the elbows and shoulders. Ting yao is to push the kua forward a bit. This is like the "ta yao" of Chen Taiji, sorry forgot the full principle of Taiji here. Qian shi is to squeeze with the knees to help align the external 6 harmonies. Which mai zhou also does.

However these are also found in a lot of waijia systems as well.

Thanks for reading, that's all folks.

[I am...]

erniewong,

Thanks for the reply, it was a genuine question out of curiosity on how you viewed it. I don't speak for anyone besides myself, it is often the man, not the art as you said. That being said, if the same fellow had a choice to go into boxing or the average tai chi class, he may end up with better tools and on a faster track in the boxing gym due to the overall state of understanding regarding fighting that is present among people who box, classmates, teachers, etc.

I have felt IMA people that can make it work, so don't get the impression that I am saying they don't. I also agree that the bickering in Wing Chun/Tsun/Tchun/etc. at least online is out of hand (I have never observed it in person first hand). I see the same thing happening right now in my own art (Pak Mei/Bak Mei) as the vast majority of what is lauded on Youtube shows a lack of even the basic understanding of how our stepping works, what is needed to make it work under pressure at real speed, use of positioning, etc. I don't know how to effectively combat the fakes and those that water it down from becoming the norm, but I will say it is frustrating to see happening, and if I just stood and let it be I don't know that the situation would ever improve.

[IMAS]

There are many internal and external ideas people use to do or explain the two character stance but the primal purpose of this frontal stance in Wing Chun is to encounter a groin kick or should be a shin kick up between the legs. The sticking hand or both arms holding situation is vulnerable to such a kick, and the encounter is recoil to a side stance. This is why any concentric actions such as squeeze the knee together, contracting the buttock muscles, push the pubic bone forward, and lifting up the groin, etc., will not facilitate the recoil action in turning to a side stance. To maximize the utilization of muscle elasticity is a unique feature of IMA. This is why Taijiquan and Baguaquan also have developed adhering techniques.

[erniewong]

Hi I am...

Sorry for my misunderstanding. I actually do wish that IMA and Wing Chun were more standardized. Wing Chun is more standardized for a few reasons, namely because of the few large organizations that exist. Also the majority of Wing Chun out there is from the Ip Man lineage. Also the Ip Man lineage (not including his Sihings and others) is much younger than other IMAs. With Wing Chun being further developed and spread in Hong Kong, a westernized Chinese region. His students and Ip Man all had western education. Ip Man being the last true old school grandmaster of Our lineage and being around to help his students develop stuff in Hong Kong.

If Yang Cheng Fu (or Wu Quan You, Chen Fa Ke or any of the old school guys like that) was in Hong Kong or any other Western country, we'd probably see the same thing.

The only reason I mentioned those names above was because those were the ones I knew and felt were the last ones of legend of their lines. They didn't live under the more restrictive communist era and lived through the last tumultuous times of China.

At the same time standardization can lead to over commercialization and dumbing things down. A part of the process if kung fu is the familial element which you don't find in other MAs. Sifu is your adopted father and the other students are your adopted brothers and sisters. For me that's an important part of learning for me. Being a part of the bigger picture. At the same time, I feel a larger responsibility to not besmirch the name of my sifus.

Whereas some schools crank out the certificates, diplomas, belts or sashes, the students who come from those might not feel the same responsibility. Some of those teachers just want to build an organization or just make money.

With standardization, I see the above situation happening a lot more. But that's just my opinion. The larger a school grows, the more that get lost in the mix. I remember Gary Lam said something to that line. In Hong Kong he was a well known Wing Chun teacher as well. He said he had thousands of students but only produced a few highly skilled students. Now he has a lot less students but the number of highly skilled students is much more, percentage wise of course.

If someone could standardize without bastardizing it and still keep an eye on QC, I'm all for it. Also not treating the MA like a money tree. I've known a couple of lineages where you gotta pay to go through the ranks which is totally messed up to me.

But I see obstacles for that happening. Such as the standardization of Taiji in China. A lot of Taiji is just flowery because of that. Now they're trying to do that in Wing Chun in China as well. Another organization in Hong Kong wants to do the same which will help in grading performances in competitions. So how far will it go.

None of the IMA organizations I can see are that organized across lineages. In their lineage it's OK but not across other lineages. The IMA lineages are friendly with each other (more so than the Ving Tsun lineages I know) but don't want to lose the specialness of their own lineage. Joining a larger group and standardizing stuff they might fell they get lost in the mix. Or if they try to combine all Taiji for example into one standard form (which China has done) the characteristics of each lineage don't mix well and you have one large mess.

So I see more problems than solutions. Like I said, if only those legendary guys were still around, I don't see that happening.

Your example of boxing is good but the sweet science has a very limited number of techniques and principles (here Wing Chun is similar) which is easier to standardize. The curricula of some CMAs are too large for that, depending on lineages.

In our lineage, our experience is important to the end result. We can't put everyone in a mold and get the same result. So being principally based our lineage allows you to change the system to work for you. Others have disagreed with me and said we should all strive to be like our sifu as much as possible. Others and I say that, if we copy our sifu, we will either be 100% like them or less(probably less), but will never surpass them. Also we lose our identity that way. That's kind of similar to Jeet Kune Do or MMAs philosophy.

I have one friend who's had dealings with my lineage and wasn't impressed. I changed his mind. He still has his opinions, I'm just the exception.

Some people are afraid of being lumped together in one bad group through association. I am not my lineage or my system for that matter. In the beginning I hated that people lumped me together with other lineages or one system for all that's concerned. It made me mad. Once I accepted that that's how some people think, it got easier for me. I started nodding and stopped arguing. Then I just let them touch hands with me. When I feel different to them, they start to ask me questions and a dialog starts to open. Then they change their minds about me and don't lump me together with others they've met from my lineage or system.

I can only hope to change one person at a time.

I think that's the Chinese way, customizing something and adding your own stuff into it. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many lineages. That might not be just a Chinese way, but the natural way.

Sorry for being long winded, bored at work!

[IMAS]

Wing Chun Chi Sau as taught by Yip Man is very standardized. His two friends or rivals back in Foshan, Yuen Kay San (Ruan Qi Shan) and Yiu Choi (Yao Cai), also taught Chi Sau but rather superficially. The other systems did not seem to doing any Chi Sau in Foshan said back in the 1990’s. When people seeking the root of Chi Sau in China they were greatly disappointed because they will find themselves back to the students of Yip Man in Foshan.

In general, Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, Muk Yan Jong, Luk Dim Boon Gwun and Bat Jam Dao are all available in the internet, except there were quite a bit of argument over the double knives. But it was Yip Man who made up the length of Bat Jam Dao just long enough to cover the elbow for most people when use in the reverse position and just short enough to do an inward circle flick, and people with longer forearm need to have their tailor made. The design of the butterfly knife was an adoption of the royal naval officer sword (created in 1805) and is unique and was a new kind of weaponry in the waters of Guangdong. Actually all the Southern martial arts have butterfly knives and the rat tail pole.

Most people gave up on Chi Sau because they did not learned it properly or long enough from someone proficient at it, as it will only ended up in mutual striking and detachment. So, it is quite interest to see some standardization of Chi Sau.

[erniewong]

I went to Foshan with my Sifu and it was interesting. We were prepared to do Chi Sau but they were doing Lat Sau. They would roll once or twice and disengage and attack. They surprised us a bit but we got the hang of it quickly.

I saw a clip on YouTube of Chow Tse Chuen. His grandstudent asked him how to handle a foreigner in Chi Sau. Because foreigners are usually taller, have longer arms and know the same principles. His answer was , "甩手见功夫" (Lat Sau Geen gong fu) so similar idea to the Foshan guys.

I hope the "grandmasters" still living will put out more DVDs. This way we will have physical records of our system.

[yeniseri]

Does it really make a difference!
1. Is it functional?
2. Can I incorporate it into my personal CMA?
3. Isn't it better to'judge' an art by its utility instead of whether is has 'internal or 'external" in front of it?
4.Is it cheaper to learn internal or external CMA?
5. Is there really a difference?
6. Are the skills easily transferable or are they secret until you reach the magic $ amount like a VISA credit card then you get a discount off any amount over XYZ! Just saying and compiling what I have heard said privately amongst the true practitioners!

[IMAS]

The phrase Lat Sau Jik Chung (detach hand straight thrust) emphasized the importance to thrush forward when the opponent’s hands got loosed or pull away. The real emphasise is on the ability to follow but most cases is that the opponent pulling his or her hand away, Here is where the practice of Siu Nim Tau paid off with the intention of moving forward at all-time even when the hand deflected from the intended direction. Maybe this can explain by Sun Lutang’s concept of Jin (strength) can be broken but Yi (intention) will not be broken. The opponent can stop an intended strike but when he or she moves the hand away the intended strike continues.

[erniewong]

Yes, you are correct about Lat Sau Jic Chung. As we interpret it, it's the same. But the guys we played with sometimes barely touched hands and go. A few just started chain punching right away.

One guy I met up with from Foshan even used the "Jien Chui" battle punches, dropped to a "Si ping da ma" and tried to punch below the belt. It did not work though but it wasn't normal Chi Sao.

You had to be there. It definitely wasn't "Lat Sau Jic Chong"

[IMAS]

Yes, you are correct about Lat Sau Jic Chung. As we interpret it, it's the same. But the guys we played with sometimes barely touched hands and go. A few just started chain punching right away.

One guy I met up with from Foshan even used the "Jien Chui" battle punches, dropped to a "Si ping da ma" and tried to punch below the belt. It did not work though but it wasn't normal Chi Sao.

You had to be there. It definitely wasn't "Lat Sau Jic Chong"

Well, the Pang Nan Wing Chun is mixed with Hong Quan. The Kulo people also train with very low stance like you said. Like I said before about groin kick and when you detached you can do what you like. The Foshan Chinwoo Athletic Association formed the Wing Chun Quan Research Centre in 1997 and there were 7 different systems at that time, and they started the first Chi Sau competition in China in the year 2000, and hosted similar events in 2006, 2008, and 2010. Hong Kong hosted the last one in 2012. But what they are doing is just following the San Da rules. Anyway, you can check it all out in the internet.