Is Wing Chun an IMA?

[IMAS]

Does it really make a difference!
1. Is it functional?
2. Can I incorporate it into my personal CMA?
3. Isn't it better to'judge' an art by its utility instead of whether is has 'internal or 'external" in front of it?
4.Is it cheaper to learn internal or external CMA?
5. Is there really a difference?
6. Are the skills easily transferable or are they secret until you reach the magic $ amount like a VISA credit card then you get a discount off any amount over XYZ! Just saying and compiling what I have heard said privately amongst the true practitioners!

One can learn Wing Chun forms free in the internet like some learned Taijiquan forms, etc.
It cost more for one to one private lessons.
It is more time consuming if one switch from external to internal because the idea of not to use dead (brute) force or concentric contraction is different to the external schools.
There is no secret but one do need to practice Chi Sau properly to be proficient.

[Eric_H]

Wing Chun Chi Sau as taught by Yip Man is very standardized. His two friends or rivals back in Foshan, Yuen Kay San (Ruan Qi Shan) and Yiu Choi (Yao Cai), also taught Chi Sau but rather superficially. The other systems did not seem to doing any Chi Sau in Foshan said back in the 1990’s. When people seeking the root of Chi Sau in China they were greatly disappointed because they will find themselves back to the students of Yip Man in Foshan.

When every student does the forms differently, including his two sons.. how can you say it's standardized?

[Eric_H]

The design of the butterfly knife was an adoption of the royal naval officer sword (created in 1805) and is unique and was a new kind of weaponry in the waters of Guangdong. Actually all the Southern martial arts have butterfly knives and the rat tail pole.

That's pretty cool if true, do you have a source on it?

[Eric_H]

One guy I met up with from Foshan even used the "Jien Chui" battle punches, dropped to a "Si ping da ma" and tried to punch below the belt. It did not work though but it wasn't normal Chi Sao.

*facepalm*

[kenneth fish]

IMAS, I really have to wonder where you are getting your information. I was in Foshan in the early 1980's, with a letter of introduction from my teacher. I got to meet the instructors of several non-Yip Man styles, including "Black Face" Peng. Everyone did chisao - I cannot imagine that it was Yip Man's innovation. Peng Nan's chisao was very soft and very sensitive - and my experiece with the other groups was very different from yours.

[IMAS]

Wing Chun Chi Sau as taught by Yip Man is very standardized. His two friends or rivals back in Foshan, Yuen Kay San (Ruan Qi Shan) and Yiu Choi (Yao Cai), also taught Chi Sau but rather superficially. The other systems did not seem to doing any Chi Sau in Foshan said back in the 1990’s. When people seeking the root of Chi Sau in China they were greatly disappointed because they will find themselves back to the students of Yip Man in Foshan.

When every student does the forms differently, including his two sons.. how can you say it's standardized?

Chi Sau is very standard if you mastered the watertight defense at least in the static stance frontal stage. Watertight is really mean that the opponent can not leak through the basic techniques and can not carryout mutual striking. The problem with most commercial Wing Chun is the Fook Sau defense is poor and is actually vulnerable to downward strike from bong sau and upward strike from tan sau.

[IMAS]

The design of the butterfly knife was an adoption of the royal naval officer sword (created in 1805) and is unique and was a new kind of weaponry in the waters of Guangdong. Actually all the Southern martial arts have butterfly knives and the rat tail pole.

That's pretty cool if true, do you have a source on it?

Here is the source, and you can check it out by looking at various design of naval swords and various form of weaponry in China. I think the first one is a single long knife call the enclosed elbow knife, and there is a book on it published in the 50's?

[IMAS]

IMAS, I really have to wonder where you are getting your information. I was in Foshan in the early 1980's, with a letter of introduction from my teacher. I got to meet the instructors of several non-Yip Man styles, including "Black Face" Peng. Everyone did chisao - I cannot imagine that it was Yip Man's innovation. Peng Nan's chisao was very soft and very sensitive - and my experiece with the other groups was very different from yours.

Well, like I said before "The Foshan Chinwoo Athletic Association formed the Wing Chun Quan Research Centre in 1997 and there were 7 different systems at that time, and they started the first Chi Sau competition in China in the year 2000, and hosted similar events in 2006, 2008, and 2010. Hong Kong hosted the last one in 2012. But what they are doing is just following the San Da rules. Anyway, you can check it all out in the internet."

Things in Foshan were not yet back to normal in the 80's, so it is very difficult to say. But is very difficult to comment on Pang Nan because he learned many arts including Taijiquan pushing hands. Wing Chun actually was ban in China before the open-door policy, and I think the Foshan Chinwoo was reinstated only in 1984. So, it is interesting whom you actually met.

I can only tell you the problems Chinwoo Athletic Association had in starting up the Chi Sau competition back in 1997.

[kenneth fish]

I think the oft repeated statement that Wing Chun was banned is B.S. . It was openly practiced in Foshan and Shunde when I was there in 1981 and 1983. I think it is just some folks trying to say "yo, we so bad that we are not even allowed to teach". Yes, Peng Nan learned several arts - so what. His Wing Chun was very good - and it was Wing Chun, not a mixture of arts. Other groups (Yuan Qishan's line, among other non-Yip Man lines, including one that claimed to be one generation removed from Liang Zhan) all had well developed sticking hands. As for what the Athletic Association was able to accomplish - I really do not think that is representative of what was being taught and practiced - it was a sporting event.

[IMAS]

Well the open door policy started at the end of 1978, and Sum Nung was very active in Guangzhou since then. Yip Man was back in Foshan in 1917, and like I said before he and Yuan Qishan and Yiu Choi were good friends. What they learn or exchange from each other was not know. If you observe close enough there are differences in Chi Sau.

[yeniseri]

IMAS,
I think that whether Wing Chun is 'externa'l or 'internal' depends on the individual. Personally it is neither but both.
There is a tradition (as you know) of teachers learning from each other without kowtowing to each other, with each developing according to their own inclination and there will be and have been differences in their art.
One of my early taijiquan teachers was Arthur Chan (1978-1981) and he studied with Yip Man??? and his version was smooth, adroit and simple. Although Chan sifu wanted me to do WIng Chun instead of taiji, he would always use wing chun references. I see alot of similarities in tuishou with WIng Chun concept but labelling WIng Chun IMA is a Big stretch.
Regarding the banning of WIng Chun, it never happened according to Chan sifu. My memory is off somewhat on this but this is what I recall.

[Ian]

Good wing chun is just good cma is just good fighting skill...

The rest is superfluous. 'Is it or isn't it an IMA' is all bullshit, really.

Even though I think wing chun has many holes and isn't a well-rounded fighting system, it's elegantly simple, and annoyingly effective

Much respect for the real deal

[IMAS]

IMAS,
I think that whether Wing Chun is 'externa'l or 'internal' depends on the individual. Personally it is neither but both.
There is a tradition (as you know) of teachers learning from each other without kowtowing to each other, with each developing according to their own inclination and there will be and have been differences in their art.
One of my early taijiquan teachers was Arthur Chan (1978-1981) and he studied with Yip Man??? and his version was smooth, adroit and simple. Although Chan sifu wanted me to do WIng Chun instead of taiji, he would always use wing chun references. I see alot of similarities in tuishou with WIng Chun concept but labelling WIng Chun IMA is a Big stretch.
Regarding the banning of WIng Chun, it never happened according to Chan sifu. My memory is off somewhat on this but this is what I recall.

Things are a bit chaotic before 1979 in China, and the Hong Kong Chinwoo Athletic Association did not have any contact with the associations in the mainland much later after they established again around 1984. There are too many missing links in the development of martial arts but the transition from one technique to another seems very logical. Proper Taiji push hand also work on rotational stretches and muscle recoils to neutralize and to develop spiral power. Wing Chun is more on the centerline while Bagua is more in mobility.

[IMAS]

Pang Nam Wing Chun Chi Sao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7InujHDTNA

Pang Nam's Wing Chun is linked to Yip Man's senior Kung Fu brothers under Chan Wah Shun, and the Chan Wah Shun family is in Shunde a region of Foshan and they said they retain the martial arts taught by Chan Wah Shu's son Chan Yu Min:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G304i7ZnX4M

[erniewong]

Our school visited Kwok Fu 5-6 years ago. He just sat there and told us some stories. One was that he met Yuan Kay San without knowing who he was. Yip Man saw an old guy watching them. Yip Man told Kwok Fu to do some Chi Sao with him. The guy didn't do so well because he was much older. Kwok Fu at the time said it sounded like Yip Man didn't like the guy very much because why would he tell the young Kwok Fu to practice with the old guy. Also Yip smiled a little when the guy didn't do so well.

Kwok Fu didn't want to say who it was, but someone else said it was Yuan Kay Shan. Not to say who's better, Kwok Fu himself said the guy was MUCH older than him so it wasn't fair.

From this story they definitely had a competitive thing going on, so I dunno if they "shared anything" with each other. Chi Sao was probably standard and they had their own ways of doing things.

Everyone says somebody copied something from each other. People say Yip Man stole the design of the "live" dummy from another line. Or his version of Wing Chun was incomplete until he went to "Dai Duk Lan" and saw other wing chun line's techniques.

I also agree with Dr. Fish. Most people didn't openly teach kung fu during the cultural revolution or under Mao's rule, but they practiced in private. There weren't any schools per se, they just practiced at their Sifu's homes.

I met quite a few old timers who said the same thing. What they couldn't do was openly teach or open a school, so they couldn't make a living off of it. But everyone still taught and learned. I'm talking about Shanghai though.

Also Foshan was a little bit freer I would think. Foshan wasn't near the ports like Guangzhou or Shanghai. Port cities had more government control than other places because of how much money went through there. So the government wasn't watching them as much as Guangzhou, Shanghai or Beijing. One of my teachers were sent to a work camp in Shanghai, he said it was pretty strict there. However he was still able to practice.