Is Wing Chun an IMA?

[IMAS]

Kwok Fu was not in good health since the cultural revolution but Lun Gai was doing okay up to 1998 in Foshan to carry on the Yip Man tradition. There is no real difference between Foshan and Hong Kong in the Yip Man system. Chi Sau did not took up in a big way in Foshan when Yip Man went back there in 1917 but certainly there were some influences on the Wing Chun community. So, I think Chi Sau is a good way to setup some standards.

[IMAS]

Someone is working on the qi gong side of Wing chun:

http://wingchunqigong.com.au/

[IMAS]

Wing Chun Qi Gong (in Chinese):

http://www.wushu99.com/html/yongchunqua ... 2/236.html

[Bao]

There is, to the best of my knowledge, zero evidence for Xingyi prior to the 18th century. Xinyi, its root, is a 17th century development.

Xingyi was developed with the concepts of Yi Jin Jing, and so is Wing Chun but with more improvements.

I just remembered an old article in Black Belt Mag that says that Yijinjing is probably an early 19th century development. There was a 4 part series in the 60s. The last one here is most to the point. This article series was not written by any normal journalist or writer, but by a true scholar and an expert on Chinese history and folk life. In many articles for various magazines, he tried to wipe out old myth with research and proofs, but with no impact on the TCMA community here in the west. I guess we rather choose to believe in myths.

I Chin Chin Conclusion: Forgery Casts Doubt on Origins of Martial Arts

[IMAS]

From the Mawangdui archaeological site, qigong daoyin is said to be dated back to the western Han Dynasty (206 BCE – 9 CE), the question is whether Yi Jin Jing is related to Daoyin. Taoism is not fully evolved as a philosophy at that time. and making Taoist Daoyin as a standard for IMA is irrelevant.

[wingchun]

Kwok Fu was not in good health since the cultural revolution but Lun Gai was doing okay up to 1998 in Foshan to carry on the Yip Man tradition. There is no real difference between Foshan and Hong Kong in the Yip Man system. Chi Sau did not took up in a big way in Foshan when Yip Man went back there in 1917 but certainly there were some influences on the Wing Chun community. So, I think Chi Sau is a good way to setup some standards.

Do have knoledge of Kwok Fu wing chun bagua steps?

Do you remember if kwok fu inserted his foot or not in his stances, when doing bagua bo? and was there any stepping patterns that were different than the angle stepping in ip man Hong Kong wing chun?

[IMAS]

Hi wingchun,

I know Wing Chun Quan and Baguaquan but I have no knowledge of Kowk Fu's Wing Chun Bagua steps. It is better if you just ask about a technique instead of linking it to so and so.

Shaolin Martial Arts look at Bagua as eight different directions, There are forms related to Bagua in Shaolin Martial Arts such as Bagua Dao, etc. If you look at the wooden dummy techniques they are going around the dummy in semi circle and step into the centre line of the dummy from the sides.

Are you going to tell us stories about Kwok Fu? He was working in Guangzhou for some years and must have heard of Fu Zhen Song and his Baguaquan.

[Bao]

From the Mawangdui archaeological site, qigong daoyin is said to be dated back to the western Han Dynasty (206 BCE – 9 CE),

There is Daoyin and there is qigong. There is no such thing as daoyin qigong. And there is no real proof of an organized or structured set before Hua To's five animals.

the question is whether Yi Jin Jing is related to Daoyin.

According to the sources, it's more likely to have been developed by martial artists in the beginning of the 19th century. It wouldn't be very close related. But it has a clear connection to daoism and daoist practice.

Taoism is not fully evolved as a philosophy at that time.

What Taoism? There is not only one daoism, but many different schools or variations. The Huang-Lao sect was created in the 2nd-century BCE, just the time you mention. So we can regard Daoism as "fully evolved" at that time, both the religion and the philosphy.

and making Taoist Daoyin as a standard for IMA is irrelevant.

But it is relevant. IMA use daoist and neo-confucian terminology, not buddhist. And certainly there is no trace from indian thoughts.

The taoist terminology is the link between the IMA arts, not body use, shenfa, qi development or anything else. IMA use a certain terminology, that's all. WC does not = WC is not an IMA.

[IMAS]

According to:

http://www.daoistcenter.org/daoyin.html

Such adepts are contrasted with the Daoist sage (shengren 聖人), who does not practice Daoyin but rather aims at mystical unification with the Dao through quietistic meditation...........................These types of seated Daoyin, including the Twenty-four Node Seated Methods (ershisi qi zuogong 二十四氣坐功), became especially popular in Daoist circles during the late Ming (1368-1644) and Qing (1644-1911) dynasties.

So, it is very interesting to see the connection to Martial Arts.

One of the postulation is that the Daoist sage got ill health from meditation and started to do some exercise.

[IMAS]

My postulation is that the Taoist and Buddhist were having health problems in doing mediation but the Shaolin people have resolved it by doing martial arts and developed the static stretching type of exercise from Daoyin and they called it Yi Jin Jing, the Taoist learned it and found it inconsistent with their practice so they developed the dynamic approach and called it internal martial arts. Wing Chun basically follows the Yi Jin Jing approach in the Siu Lim Tau form and then develop into the dynamic approach in later forms, and interestingly they also developed sticking hand utilized the principle of stick and follow as in Taijiquan. I think the standard of IMA is whether one can develop strength and springiness in their training. Therefore, whatever martial art you do that does not make you strong and flexible is not IMA.

[GrahamB]

So, 11 pages in.... Did we decide if Wing Chun is an IMA?

[Bao]

So, 11 pages in.... Did we decide if Wing Chun is an IMA?

There's nothing to decide. It's not. It might be as internal as any IMA but that still doesn't make it IMA.

And the Yijinjing still have nothing to do with the Shaolin si.

[IMAS]

The first posture of Yi Jin Jing is Skanda offering the Pestle, will Taoist give such name to their system of Daoyin? The same goes to Chen Style Taijiquan using Buddhist name for its form, and is Chen Style Taijiquan IMA?

My understanding is that Yi Jin Jing did not come from India but no body say Buddhist in China can not develop something from Daoyin the same way as Taoist develop something from Daoyin.

Furthermore, the concepts of Taiji and Bagua are not from Taoism as well.

[IMAS]

So, 11 pages in.... Did we decide if Wing Chun is an IMA?

I think we have established some sort of ideas on what IMA should be, and Taoist Daoyin is not it.

[GrahamB]

So, 11 pages in.... Did we decide if Wing Chun is an IMA?

I think we have established some sort of ideas on what IMA should be, and Taoist Daoyin is not it.

But is the glass half empty, or is it full?