Should Shuiajiao and Tuisau Competitions Be Combined?

[Andy_S]

Shuaijiao Stand-up Chinese jacketed rassling, generally dominated by Shuaijiao peeps. Standup throwing is their primary training.
Tuisau: Stand-up, non-jacketed Chinese rassling, generally dominated by Taiji peeps. Push hands is just one of the training components of Taiji.

Should these two formats be combined?

If so, would it be good for Shuaijiao? Would it be good for Taiji?

My personal feeling is that if Taiji peeps are going to compete in Tuisau, then they may as well go the whole hog and compete with SC peeps. This would also obviate the preposterous "I pushed him an inch, so I am the winner!" style of PH "competition" that is thankfully seen less these days, but still occasionally encountered.

Anyway...discuss.

(Yes, I KNOW there is an argument that PH is "only a training exercise" and is "not for competition or for fighting," but if you take away PH competition, then Taiji is left with no contact competition at all. Given that it is no longer common for Taiji peeps to fight death matches, challenge the imperial bodyguards, escort caravans through bandit-infested countryside, etc, etc, the lack of this last competitive format would push the art even further away from its already distant martial roots.)

[GrahamB]

Yes. But only if we can include ground fighting too

[IMAS]

According to Master Niu Sheng Xian the former champion and coach of the Beijing Pushing Hand Team, before China scrap the pushing hand competition from the National Taijiquan Championship the dominating camps are the Shuiajiao people from Shangdong and the Xingyi people from Beijing. The Taijiquan people fail to prove any advantage over the others in terms of the rules of Taiji pushing hand.

[daniel pfister]

(Yes, I KNOW there is an argument that PH is "only a training exercise" and is "not for competition or for fighting," but if you take away PH competition, then Taiji is left with no contact competition at all. Given that it is no longer common for Taiji peeps to fight death matches, challenge the imperial bodyguards, escort caravans through bandit-infested countryside, etc, etc, the lack of this last competitive format would push the art even further away from its already distant martial roots.)

Good question! I definitely fall into the PH-is-a-training-exercise camp, but that doesn't mean that PH can't be used to train for some type of competition. My problem with combining it with SC is basically the same as with PH competitions, namely that strikes of any kind aren't allowed. If this were done I feel it would continue the trend of TJQ becoming a non-striking art. The other current alternative is to have TJQ folks train for Sanda and Lei Tai matches, this could be better, except for the fact that the rules and padding requirements limit the range of techniques which can be used, specifically with the sensitivity in the hands trained extensively in PH, and basically, IMO, turn those matches into rather unsophisticated bludgeoning contests.

Ideally, someone would have to tailor competition rules for the sake of TJQ and IMA players but that should also attract other MA stylists to join. I would say head and chest gear could be ok, but that only very lite gloves (or none at all) would be required). You probably wouldn't allow ground fighting at first, just because you'd want to attract a solid base of TCM folks.

Obviously, fighting bare-handed gets dangerous quite quickly, even with head gear, and that is probably why we haven't seen anything like this happen yet. However, anything less than this, IMO, severely limits the range of techniques and responses available to a well-practiced TJQ player.

[everything]

sure. other than due to politics, it makes no sense to have so many comp formats. with popularity the overall level will be higher and more beneficial for everyone. what is most popular over there (are you in china?)? if shuaijiao is popular i'd rather do that. in the usa, why not just compete in judo and call it a day? if you want more groundwork compete in bjj. different rulesets give you a different experience but how many are really needed? really?

[neijia_boxer]

I've noticed the competition scenes in both are really narrow in the amount of people who compete. I think they should combine them. If you are a taiji guy you should be able to handle and Shuai chiao guy and vice versa. Hell- if you a taiji guy and call yourself a martial artist, you should be able to walk into any school or competition and kick peoples ass, but most taiji people are chicken shit so it aint going to happen.

[everything]

haha yeah. like ph, but I've never seen a ph comp and can't think of any reason to do so, lol. most of the current ufc champs have a strong background in wrestling (for usa folks, likely the widest base of competitors). velasquez, hs champ, jon jones, hs champ, gsp (no youth background but known for world-class wresting), benson Henderson (hs all-American). another argument to just do the popular comp in a given locale (sambo, shuaijiao, judo, bjj, whatever is big in that country). if ph could get big, it'd be better, but if it's just competing against shuaijiao, it is just fragmenting the pool of interested folks

[liokault]

In the uk, both are equally irrelevant.


I have a friend from my tcc class who went to a sj squad training day, his first contact with sj ever, and was told on the day he can be part of the uk squad and fight internationally in the next few months.

They just couldn't get the numbers to put up a proper squad.

[everything]

yikes! to paraphrase rodney dangerfield, i don't want to be part of a club that would accept me so readily

[mixjourneyman]

Frank Ding in Toronto has hosted competitions which invite people from all wrestling disciplines to compete with the taiji guys.
he has had judo, probably SC and other styles push in his things and the taiji guys usually do well.
My good friend Nic Mann has one several of these things with the stuff that he does under Chen Zhonghua. Nic isn't a big guy and often competes above his weight class,

i think if one wants to have push hands type competitions, there should be a really clear concept of what is being measured as skill.
if you push with really good yang style people, often only the two people pushing will know who won or lost.
Chen style peeps will probably toss you,
but the training ideas are totally different.
That may be why there is so much disagreement over what taijiquan push hands is exactly.

[Andy_S]

Daniel:

SNIP
My problem with combining it with SC is basically the same as with PH competitions, namely that strikes of any kind aren't allowed.
SNIP

Sure, but so what is your point? If you want a striking and grappling comp, you have sanda/sansau. Moreover, sanda competition is increasingly widely seen in general CMA competitions, and is (IMHO) an excellent reality test for CMA.

The problem is that sanda (which encompasses the skills seen in shuaijiao and PH) is a very rough, very knockabout sport. Only a very few TCMA peeps take part in it and the proportion of Taiji peeps who do is tinier still. Likewise, as Lioakault notes, SC also takes up only a very small proportion of the CMA combative arena.

The point of PH competition is that it is less injurious and works within a skillset that even the gentlest Taiji schools include (ie PH training drills). In fact - according to Chen family legend - the reason Chen Wangting created PH was to have a combative format that could be trained without risk of constant injury.

In an ideal world, we would not need separate subsets of combat like PH, wrestling, judo, BJJ, TKD, boxing, kickboxing, etc - we would just have MMA, which covers everything you can do within the sportive, unarmed combat field. But it is not an ideal world.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
i think if one wants to have push hands type competitions, there should be a really clear concept of what is being measured as skill.
SNIP

Well, in the mainland PH comps the aim is:
To get the opponent's knee (or usually, more of him) on the deck;
To get the opponent off the leitai.

Ergo, the skillsets being tested are to drop/throw or project the opponent.

The first skillset has a significant place in "real" fighting, the second one has a smaller place in that sphere - though neither are the totality of combat.

The skillset that is often, however, seen in certain HK, Taiwanese and US tourneys - to move (usually by pushing or pulling) the opponent one or two inches - seems to be to be a pretty useless to develop, in combative terms. Online, there is a clip of some HK Taiji peeps who had clearly been used to the "pushy pully" style of training, going up against some young guns from Zhaobao Taiji and being hurled hither and yon to a degree that must have been severely embarrassing to them.

[Ian Cipperly]

Comp tui shou should be played at shuai tui shou IMO.

[daniel pfister]

Daniel:

SNIP
My problem with combining it with SC is basically the same as with PH competitions, namely that strikes of any kind aren't allowed.
SNIP

Sure, but so what is your point? If you want a striking and grappling comp, you have sanda/sansau. Moreover, sanda competition is increasingly widely seen in general CMA competitions, and is (IMHO) an excellent reality test for CMA.

In an ideal world, we would not need separate subsets of combat like PH, wrestling, judo, BJJ, TKD, boxing, kickboxing, etc - we would just have MMA, which covers everything you can do within the sportive, unarmed combat field. But it is not an ideal world.

That's kinda my point. I don't view PH as a "subset of combat" at all, but as a training exercise that could help with something more rough like competition sanda. But if you make PH a competition, and insert rules against striking and grabbing with two hands, it become far, far less useful in that regard IMO. Yet, I do understand that simply having competition PH out there at CMA tournaments may help to increase the popularity of IMA in general. So it's a conundrum for me.

[taiwandeutscher]

SNIP
.....
Well, in the mainland PH comps the aim is:
To get the opponent's knee (or usually, more of him) on the deck;
To get the opponent off the leitai.

.....
The skillset that is often, however, seen in certain HK, Taiwanese and US tourneys - to move (usually by pushing or pulling) the opponent one or two inches - seems to be to be a pretty useless to develop, in combative terms. Online, there is a clip of some HK Taiji peeps who had clearly been used to the "pushy pully" style of training, going up against some young guns from Zhaobao Taiji and being hurled hither and yon to a degree that must have been severely embarrassing to them.

Ja, ja, Andy, I could say exactly the same of certainmainland phs comps. Didn't you see the other thread with the winner from RSF.
I have seen lots of phs in mainland in late 80s/eraly 90s, nothing really special and our Taiwan team was clearly superior. Did they progress so much? Don't judge by some comps only! Did you ever come here and seek out some really good people? No, I tought so!