Back straight, shoulder width, parellel horse stance

[aiasthewall]

Apologies, as this may have come up before. I would like to begin training this stance, but do not want to injure myself by doing it incorrectly. If anyone has any experience learning this, and would be willing to give pointers, I would be very grateful. If it is a bad idea to train it without a teacher who has learned it (I have a wonderful teacher, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't trained this), then I will forget the idea for now.

Thanks,

Brendan

[kenneth fish]

That is the basic horse stance for the Henan Shaolin Lohan system, as well as the majority of Northern (Henan, Hebei, Shandong) "Shaolin" derived systems. First, it might be relevant to ask what you are training now, and what your teacher's background is.

[aiasthewall]

Thanks, Dr. Fish for the response. I currently train xing yi and il liq with Steve Arboleda, for about three years. He is a great teacher, very generous and skilled, and we train plenty of basic exercises(fu hu gong, etc.). He trained with Tom Bisio and Sam Chin, as well as Jujutsu. I trained some in my youth as well, mostly wing chun mixed with boxing and grappling stuff. The exercise simply seems like a great way to open the kua ,develop ground connection, as well as develop leg and center strength.

Thanks again.

[Robert Young]

Not all northern systems do that. Our LF horse stance do NOT have back straight. All our stances have lean forward back, so are most of the northern systems in San Dong area. Our horse stance have curved back with forward lean, double shoulder width with parallel foot.

Currently, lots of Northern Shaolin Systems in Mainland China have been influenced by New WuShu so that they have straight back. It was not like that in the past.

[Simon]

Check Master He's www.baguaquanlessons.com he has lots of exercises on the video section which sound like what you are looking for.

[aiasthewall]

Thank you Simon, that is close to what I was looking for. Specifically however, I was looking for guide lines and or warnings so for the specific posture I mentioned.

[Simon]

Its in there there are more on youtube. A lot on Mabu all the basic exercises allow you to do the stance as intended without forcing it.

[Bao]

warnings so for the specific posture I mentioned.

For all kind of stance practice, If you feel sharp pain in the knees, hip or back, quit at once. If you are smart and listen to your body, it should be easy to learn what is "good" pain and what is bad pain.

But it's always better to have a teacher. Often we don't feel what we are doing wrong. Most of us really need someone else to tell us.

[aiasthewall]

All right, more or less what I figured. Guess Ill just work on it and be careful. Thanks very much everyone.

Brendan

[Interloper]

This subject reminds me of a pet peeve with "shoulder width" stances. When I was coming up in the MAs, the constant correction I'd get from teachers, regardless of the art, was that my feet were too far apart and instead should be "shoulder width."

Fact is, my feet were hip-width apart, because I'm a woman, and women generally have hips wider than shoulders while men generally have shoulders wider than their hips. The concept of shoulder-width in the MAs was of course based on the male frame.When men stand with their feet shoulder-width apart, they tend to have a wider, more stable base than when wide-hipped women stand with their legs shoulder-width apart --- which makes us females more knocked knee'd in our stance. So, I tended to go with hip width regardless of my nagging teachers. Somehow, I've managed to become a perfectly functional martial technician, these past 40 years, despite my "wide" horse stance.

[taiwandeutscher]

Oh, good to know and totally logic!
None of my many Chines teachers ever thought of that, me neither.
Really nice to have clever women on RSF, thank you!

[greytowhite]

Great information there Interloper. I'll try to remember that if ever I need it.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Not all northern systems do that. Our LF horse stance do NOT have back straight. All our stances have lean forward back, so are most of the northern systems in San Dong area. Our horse stance have curved back with forward lean, double shoulder width with parallel foot.
SNIP

Indeed, this is how I learned the mabu in PM and LF.

[kenneth fish]

Robert:

Go back and read my post. I was referring to "Shaolin derived" systems - such as Er Lang, Da Hong, Liu He Men, Mizong, and yes, some Praying Mantis systems as well. What you refer to as Long Fist (Han Family Long Fist) looks to me to be an amalgam of systems, but yes it is also representative of the way some systems are practiced in Shandong, with a wider stance and arched back. This is not so throughout the provence. It is also by no means a sign of New Wushu influence - my Lohan teachers learned their systems at the turn of the 20th century. One of them, Heng Yueh, learned during the late 1800's - when I met him he was in his late 90's, and he was still able to hold this posture (he passed away at 104). Since you are also from Taiwan, you should remember Meng Zhaoxun (Fu Suyun's husband). This was the first stance he taught in Shandong Black Tiger - he used it to weed out students who were less than serious.

To get started - sit against a wall. Your feet should be as far apart as the outside dimension of your shoulders, and as far away from the wall as the length of one of your own feet. Lower yourself down until the bottom of your thigh is parallel to the ground. Your heels should seek the midline - as if you are pressing them against the flank of a horse. Your toes should point straight ahead, lightly grasping the ground. Your shins should lightly rotate laterally. The centerline of your kneecaps should line up with the center line of your feet, so that your knees point straight ahead. You should tense the medial portion of the thighs, as if grabbing a horse. You should relax the area where your thigh meets your hip - the inguinal region (relax the hip flexor - the iliopsoas). Do not tuck your hip under - flatten your back slightly by trying to lengthen your spine - as if you were being pulled down by your tailbone. Contract and pull inwards the area below your navel. Push up with the crown of your head.

When you can hold this posture against the wall with all of the above criteria in place for 60 seconds or more, progress to standing and counterbalancing by lightly holding on to something with one or two fingers. A door knob or door frame is good. Go a bit lower than above - now the top of your thighs should be
almost parallel to the ground - a staff placed across your thighs should not roll of. Your weight should be slightly forward of your ankles, and your knees extend beyond your toes.

Finally, progress to standing, in the low stance, back vertical, shoulders back (tense the muscles between the shoulder blades, at the same time pulling them down and back) while holding two bricks or dumbells in front of you. After this is comfortable, you can progress to the leg extended stance (pu bu).

[aiasthewall]

Thank you very much, Dr. Fish. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Best,

Brendan