Chi Revolution

[CaliG]

But could she punches to the gut?

[edededed]

Simply having qi will not magically give you all of the powers related to having it; you also have to learn the methods to use it (like how to take punches to the gut).

[CaliG]

I agree.

[Andy_S]

Jess:

RE:
Wang's ability to take hits was far beyond a parlour trick. You'll see in Chinese Boxing that Wang is taking a full on hit to the body from Hong Yi Xiang who was known to be able to hit hard. From talking to people who had seen Wang in action, his skills were genuine.

No question he could do the business and was a great master. But that is not what I was getting at. My point is that over-reliance on qi/over-reliance in a belief in qi can be injurious to one's health.

SNIP
Mr. Smith's books have many good stories in them. But as a person who works in the publishing industry, I take everything from a book with a grain of salt. It's hard to say exactly who was screaming inside Wang's house, that really doesn't prove anything. I prefer to take information from first hand sources, and that's where I learned about Wang Shu Jin's strengths.
SNIP

Funnily enough, while the comment about his screaming from inside the house came from Smith's book, the comment about Wang's unpleasent demise came from a direct student of his. (PM me if you are interested in learning who it is) As for Smith, I find his writing to be more credible than most for a number of reasaons:
(1) He came from a time and background (foster home during Depression, marines, boxing, judo) that produced more doers than today's talkers
(2) Reading his books, it is very, very clear that he was an educated, well-read man with a critical eye (professionally, he was an analyst for the CIA, so that critical eye was the product of training and education, not bias)
(3) He studied under multiple masters in both Japan and Taiwan, so had a good medium of comparisom
(4) He did NOT take the overly reverential approach so many, many MA writers (often students of the teachers and methods they write about) take (FYI, I do not include you in this category) in which critical faculties are suspended. The only area I would take issue with Smith is in his elevation of CMC to sainthood, i.e. where he appears to have ditched his critical faculties. On all others, he seemed to see both sides of his subjects.

SNIP
Again, based on the first hand accounts I've been fortunate to hear, Wang had something very special. He was a very tough guy. He attributed it to Qi.
SNIP

Indeed. But have his students gained this? Hong Yi-xiang, IIRC, stated words to the effect, "I can't teach you to get qi, but if you have it, I can teach you to use it." (I probably read this in one of Frantzis' books) This seems closer to the mark - and Hong, has a fine living lineage who clearly DID get it (EF staples Su Dong-chen and Luo De-xiu, for eg)

SNIP
As for Wang's death, yes, he died. He died from a severe case of diabetes. Many people die from this, with or without qi-based treatment. I find it a bit distasteful that you accuse the man of lacking common sense because he died from diabetes.
SNIP

Ok, here is where I really differ.

Sorry (and a bit surprised) that you find it "distasteful." But there again, as someone who works in media (journalism not publishing) I believe that anyone/anything is open to criticism. Again, I base my comment on a direct, first person observation by a direct student of the great Wang, who said (quote) "I think he let himself get too fat." Wang was apparently near-as-dammit addicted to sugary, fizzy drinks, obesity is not good and that is that; if you want to characterize it as lack of common sense (not a common commodity, as the saying goes) - fine.

BTW, I was not commenting only on Wang's diabetes, but also on the apparently horrific tumour he developed on one of his legs, which - and here I, personally, opine - was likely connected to his "kick me in the legs" demo. Which brings us back to belief in "qi" and, if you like, disregard for common sense. (I will expand on that last point: If, over years, you let people strike you repeatedly in a certain place, it is going to leave an effect. THIS, IMHO, is common sense.)

For the record, I state the above with all due respect for Wang's well-documented martial abilities.

Also for the record, given that such luminaries as Winston Churchill are open to criticism both during their lives and after their deaths, I do not see why martial arts masters should not be.

[neijia_boxer]

But could she punches to the gut?

she isnt a really a martial artist, but she has good taiji, she has alot of healing touch with acupressure....or stick a needle in you n paralyze ya, make you laugh, and even relax like you never felt.

[JessOBrien]

Andy, good points. I too am a big fan of Smith's and of course his book was the inspiration for my own, and for many other people. I've been lucky to exchange letters with him a few times, and he is as great a gentleman as he is a scholar and writer.

I guess my only gripe is speculating on why Wang died and the origin of his tumour and the screams, etc. We really don't know. My grandfather died on dialysis, was he too trusting of western medicine? Maybe an herbalist would have been the sensible person to see. It's hard to judge with hindsight on whether Wang was low on what we would consider common sense. I do agree that he had weaknesses like all men do, and I am partial to fizzy drinks myself.

My argument is not really with you in particular. I've seen on this board on many occasions that someone will hold up Wang as an example of a person who trusted Chi too much and shouldn't have fallen for the marketing of Chi because he died so young. True he was a religious man, and Chi was a part of his training. But his training encompassed much more than energy work, there was plenty of physical work as well. Chi was just one factor, one edge that he had that allowed him to overcome other well trained fighters. I just feel we are often oversimplifying a man into a caricature, Wang as the Chi dupe. It seems like people want to paint Wang as a strictly Chi guy, when that is an assumption based on a few quotes from some books. Good books for sure, but there is so much more to Wang's story, the vast majority of which we will never know.

Agreed that we are free to speculate and opine on any historical figure. In the case of Churchill though you have hundreds if not thousands of books and diaries and accounts. In Wang's case we have two or three English books, and a few Western students, most of whom are pretty quiet about their experiences. Not to mention that Wang himself wasn't much of a talker. I guess that leaves us with a very limited picture of Wang and our speculation is the poorer for it.

The topic of Chi is one of my favorites!

Take care,

Jess O