body learning

[somatai]

I wonder if the problem with the transmission of skills is simply a question of looking in the wrong place. People get into trying to understand things rather than experiencing them. ONce you experience it it easy to understand and describe(in accord with your understanding and available models) but to try to understand before experiencing is problematic. It seems to me that you can only really get the transmission of these arts through one on one direct body communication. You learn more in the play and not understanding than you can in your head. THe expectaton that these things can be taught other than one on one i think is misleading. Of course some communication and transfer can happen, but the good stuff is a function of being in the play often and intently with the idea of absorbing and trusting that you will learn from the experience......like surfing or anything else it is the doing of it that evolves the vocabulary and number of distinctios you can draw. Of couse the balance of intellect and body is key, but i think one must proceed the other or at least it is perhaps best that way.

[Shooter]

Depends on the body of physical knowledge one is trying to learn, and the level of 'understanding of skill' the one offering instruction has.

Having a skill and understanding that same skill are two very different things - if one is to guide the learning of someone else.

[jonathan.bluestein]

I agree. Not that lessons need be 1-on-1, but the individual learning experience should. Full, quality transmission cannot be achieved in even medium-sized groups.

I think one of the main problems in modern times is the ridiculous issues people have with touch. I was lucky to have began my journey in MA with Boxing - that made me confident in touching and being touched. But generally speaking, most people are pussies in this regard. They would hesitate touching anyone who is, say, slightly sweaty or smelly, or would shy away from close, intimate contact.

That's especially true for modern women, many of whom are brainwashed into the notion that any male touch is a form of sexual harassment or threat. One of the most troublesome things back in the day in my former Karate school, was this issue with women not willing to get in the game and do what's necessary. They (all women there) would complain endlessly on issues relating to touch: "too close", "too powerful", "too slippery", etc. Since everyone were working with everyone else and switching partners, this thing had hurt the learning process of the whole school.

I don't like being touched in everyday life. I allow very few people to touch me - mostly close friends and girlfriends. Still, when practicing martial arts, past my first or second lessons, I don't think I ever had the illusion that I could go somewhere or learn anything without leaving my dislike of touch at the door. Too many people just don't get it. For a person like that, the situation is hopeless if after several months he/she cannot fathom the reality of the matter.

I recall a point well made by the head of my former Karate organization. He noted that most people were subconsciously fearful of the rain. When it begins to rain, you'd see people cower away, lowering their head and posture and start walking with a submissive body language, like they're being beat-up by some bully. He thought this was ridiculous. This phenomenon is, in my opinion, another symptom of many modern humans being completely detached from their sensory input and physical environment.

Nowadays, I hear a lot of criticism but non martial artists about my 'crazy habit' of training outside in wintertime, including in the rain. I usually don't even bother arguing or answering. They will not understand...

[shawnsegler]

IME while Big epiphanies and leaps in skill are awesome, they are the exception and there's generally a diverse number of skill leaps of different degrees. The point is to maximize the amount of time in single pointed focus on different areas of one's development. When you apply yourself in a very consistent way so as to always be pushing your level of knowledge or amount of body efficacy through good hard practice and mental elbow grease, you are bound to achieve skill.

This is assuming things like right teaching etc...but I think I would even put that into the idea of pushing yourself with single pointed focus. That's away of breaking some illusions all by itself.

My 2c.

Best, as always...


S

[Craig]

Direct experience certainly is the only way to understand something. That being said, it needs to be combined with a curious type of mindfulness, "listening" to what is going on and what the results of your actions were. I see a lot of high level athletes able to do awesome things but can't tell you how it's done because they haven't listened to their own body.

For me, I'm perfectly happy seeing my teacher once every few months, and in the meantime, I explore the movements he gave me and even explore other "incorrect" movements so I can feel why they are incorrect or not as efficient. Without this, someone might tell me a good way of doing something, or tell me to avoid a bad way of doing something, but I have no way of knowing 100% for sure if they are correct. They might be just narrow minded (e.g. the boxing style of punching is ineffective compared to CMA - usually direct experience will quickly dispel any myths either way), or they might be delusional, or they might look like they are full of it but actually be on to something. I won't know until I experience it for myself.

Sometimes learning what *not* to do is just as powerful as learning the right way. For me in IT it is very similar. All the guys who are self taught, did all the experiments, broke a jillion computers, overclocked, melted, pulled apart and generally made heaps of errors but have no qualifications are much much better at understanding IT than the people who were just taught the "right" way to do it at say university or a course. The problem is, they never learn to improvise or think outside the box, they don't know the reason why the way they were doing it is right, nor do they know the wrong ways so they are unable to take risks and explore while still avoiding the incorrect methods. Same thing applies to almost every skill imo, including martial arts.

[shawnsegler]

I think it's also important to note that sometimes taking some time off is as good for your practice as practice is. I don't fully understand why, but it seems as if when you take some time off you process what you have a little more thoroughly.

S

[fuga]

I agree that one-on-one teaching in a hands on practice is better than group classes. The greatest improved understanding I had of taiji was when I was working push hands with a teacher for two years.

And the mental elbow/grease and inquisitiveness are also important.

The other important part is taking the practice out of the laboratory and testing and failing and reformulating with a body that is less willing. A different kind of body learning since teaching is often designed to stress ideals and success rather than the "what the fuck just happened" moment? Sometimes we are not doing what we think we are and the outside the laboratory environment helps to shine a light on that difference that we could not perceive.

-pete

[Bhassler]

I wonder if the problem with the transmission of skills is simply a question of looking in the wrong place. People get into trying to understand things rather than experiencing them. ONce you experience it it easy to understand and describe(in accord with your understanding and available models) but to try to understand before experiencing is problematic. It seems to me that you can only really get the transmission of these arts through one on one direct body communication. You learn more in the play and not understanding than you can in your head. THe expectaton that these things can be taught other than one on one i think is misleading. Of course some communication and transfer can happen, but the good stuff is a function of being in the play often and intently with the idea of absorbing and trusting that you will learn from the experience......like surfing or anything else it is the doing of it that evolves the vocabulary and number of distinctios you can draw. Of couse the balance of intellect and body is key, but i think one must proceed the other or at least it is perhaps best that way.

The map is not the territory in the sense that studying a map will never be the same as making the journey in real life, but if you're embarking on a long journey to a place you've never been before then a little time with a good map can go a long way. It also helps if someone shows you how to read a map properly.

[fuga]

But don't just stare at the map and not take the journey.

[Andy_S]

Derek:

SNIP
People get into trying to understand things rather than experiencing them. ONce you experience it it easy to understand and describe(in accord with your understanding and available models) but to try to understand before experiencing is problematic. It seems to me that you can only really get the transmission of these arts through one on one direct body communication. You learn more in the play and not understanding than you can in your head.
SNIP

Broadly I agree with you, but we think in words and we have intellects, which influence our bodies.

For example:
Several years ago, after watching me practice my Taiji and Bagua for just a few minutes, Master He Jing-han once said two things to me (each thing was one sentence) which were real eureka moments.

One thing was something I started working on immediately and which took me months to get (in fact, several years later, it is still a challenge, though I have internalized it a bit more).

The other point made perfect sense of how/why a core IMA concept is practiced in Taiji and Bagua.

I came away from that meeting thinking that He is a true master of CMA:
Some simple things are profound and don't require physical contact: Words are enough.

JB:

RE: This
SNIIP
They (all women there) would complain endlessly on issues relating to touch: "too close", "too powerful", "too slippery"
SNIP

On that last point...what exactly were you asking them to touch?

I'd delete that post if I were you, you filthy hound. You can be arrested for this kind of thing...

[Ian]

I wonder if the problem with the transmission of skills

What skills? Good body knowledge, life or death struggle, killing, friendly exchanges with your training partners?

You learn more in the play and not understanding than you can in your head.

Play, flow, and all that good stuff definitely have their place. They're indispensable.

But can you play your way to learning how to access bursts of anti-social, almost sociopathic intent? Or tactical first aid? Close quarters shooting? I think certain 'modules' require you to adopt a researcher, student, or professional mindset, rather than a playful one.

[Chris McKinley]

Play, flow, and all that good stuff definitely have their place. They're indispensable.

But can you play your way to learning how to access bursts of anti-social, almost sociopathic intent? Or tactical first aid? Close quarters shooting? I think certain 'modules' require you to adopt a researcher, student, or professional mindset, rather than a playful one.

Most definitely true for some content, especially to be able to contextualize the learning properly. Not all relevant learning is kinesthetic/somatic.

[Bao]

It seems to me that you can only really get the transmission of these arts through one on one direct body communication. You learn more in the play and not understanding than you can in your head.

Yeah, that's the way it is. Your body needs to learn the art. After that, you use your brain to understand what learned.

It's amazing what the body can do by itself if we program into your muscle memory. Then, in IMA, we try to shut up our interfering thoughts that interupts our body from using what it has learned. We rely on tingjin and try to have a "no thought" (wu xin) state of mind. It's all very fascinating. The hardest part, I believe, is to learn to really trust something else than your logic and thinking, and then be brave enough to tell your own brain to stfu.

[Craig]

Play, flow, and all that good stuff definitely have their place. They're indispensable.

But can you play your way to learning how to access bursts of anti-social, almost sociopathic intent? Or tactical first aid? Close quarters shooting? I think certain 'modules' require you to adopt a researcher, student, or professional mindset, rather than a playful one.

I agree, that's why I chose to say "curious exploration" rather than play. You can still curiously explore tactics, intent, weapon work or anything else. Questions like "what if I do it this way instead of the way I was shown, what happens, is it worse, why is it worse, is it better, why is it better?" etc etc. Especially if you can work in relatively realistic but still safe ways (for example, when we were working with the disarms at your place with the airsoft guns...we were able to see exactly what got us shot and what didn't, and we could explore all different ways of doing it).

[Chris McKinley]

I agree, that's why I chose to say "curious exploration" rather than play. You can still curiously explore tactics, intent, weapon work or anything else. Questions like "what if I do it this way instead of the way I was shown, what happens, is it worse, why is it worse, is it better, why is it better?" etc etc.

Bingo! This is the more accurate and useful description. But maybe I'm biased, having literally written the model for this precise state-based learning model separating learning, practicing, and conceptualizing, and the states which match each purpose best.