This isn't the thread you're looking for.

[charles]

the actual teaching of the stuff shouldn't take long at all. A good teacher should be able to teach a moderately advanced yoga, dance, or Pilates student...to generate meaningful internal power reliably in just a couple of lessons, at most. Once you get the basics you can refine it for a lifetime, and individual physical and mental limitations can change the learning trajectory, but the whole idea of needing years to learn it or it taking thousands of repetitions is bullshit.

To a point. That's rather like saying you can teach the basic movements of each piece in the game of chess in just a couple of lessons, at most. Once you get the basics, you can refine it for a lifetime. Anyone can learn the basic movements of the chess pieces, but it takes a whole lot of practice, thought and loosing before a player has any real grasp of the game and has any real facility with it.

Or tennis. Anyone can learn the backhand, the forehand and the serve in just a couple of lessons, at most. It's easy and once you get those you can refine it for a lifetime. But, after those few lessons, one isn't going to win any games or have any "reliable" competency. That takes lots of practice...

Then, of course, there is the issue of what, exactly, does "generate meaningful internal power reliably" mean. After a few lessons, can one expect to manipulate like a rag doll an opponent half-again one's size? It's not a discussion I'm interested in, but it needs to be pointed out, I think.

[charles]

Thankfully, I know better than to get involved in conversations like that these days.

You are a wise man.

[Interloper]

Interloper, My attempt at employing Jedi Mind Tricks has failed.

.

No, it succeeded. My post disappeared!

[somatai]

Totally disagree with bhassler......most of the folks that train with us are yoga teachers and trainers and that has not been true for an

y of them........it is a different body and must be built

[somatai]

Totally disagree with bhassler......most of the folks that train with us are yoga teachers and trainers and that has not been true for an

y of them........it is a different body and must be built

[gzregorz]

I once asked an Aikido teacher how they do that knife hand strike and the lady yelled at me, "WE DON'T HIT IN AIKIDO!" like I was a buffoon.

Later in class she tried to lock me but couldn't. I never returned. It just wasn't for me.

Over ten years later now I could probably appreciate and understand the training but if I wanted to learn that kind of thing I would rather do Russian martial arts.

[Bhassler]

Then, of course, there is the issue of what, exactly, does "generate meaningful internal power reliably" mean. After a few lessons, can one expect to manipulate like a rag doll an opponent half-again one's size? It's not a discussion I'm interested in, but it needs to be pointed out, I think.

No, not manipulate like a rag doll, but they should be able to manipulate that big guy if he just muscles up and stands there like a good demo puppet. If you take your most basic fajin, a student without pre-existing structural issues should be able to do that after a couple of lessons (while you're teaching them. How they take it home and if they practice is a whole 'nother ball of wax). Otherwise, there's a breakdown in someone's ability as a teacher to understand what they're doing, articulate it, and guide a student to doing it in their own bodies.

To be clear, understanding and articulating movement concretely is a skill equal to the skill of actually doing something like IMA, and the ability to impart that to another (i.e. analyze their movement patterns and thought processes and communicate with them in their own language) is yet another equally complex skillset. Each of those areas is something worthy of deep study and practice in their own right, so it is probably unreasonable to expect one person to have a high level of mastery of all three. I take issue not with the fact that very few people are interested in pursuing that level of expertise, but with the assumption that "I learned it this way and my teacher learned it this way, therefore that's the only way to learn it." Implicit within that statement is the belief that anyone who fails to learn it that way is deficient in their own talent or practice, rather than acknowledging that the teaching isn't that great.

[Bhassler]

Totally disagree with bhassler......most of the folks that train with us are yoga teachers and trainers and that has not been true for an

y of them........it is a different body and must be built

I would assert that it's not-- it's a human body, plain and simple. If someone can't describe what they're doing in terms of the basic movements of the human body, then they just don't understand it.

BTW, please don't interpret my hard-line ideology as an attack against anyone-- in particular, I have tremendous respect for both you and Charles as practitioners and as teachers. From what I've seen you're both well above the average. I also don't claim to be all the way there, yet, but I do know that as a standard it is attainable and I can see it from where I'm standing. I've spent years of relatively unproductive training due to well intentioned but wholly inadequate teaching, and it would be great if someone else could be saved from that.

[Interloper]

I once asked an Aikido teacher how they do that knife hand strike and the lady yelled at me, "WE DON'T HIT IN AIKIDO!" like I was a buffoon.

Later in class she tried to lock me but couldn't. I never returned. It just wasn't for me.

Over ten years later now I could probably appreciate and understand the training but if I wanted to learn that kind of thing I would rather do Russian martial arts.

There are plenty of schools like that, but they're not representative of what aikido was, and still is, in the hands of some teachers and schools. If you're ever in the Boston area, or have an opportunity to take one of William (Bill) Gleason's aikido seminars around the country, you'd get a much better idea of aikido's strong points and potential. He has internal skills and teaches them. Worth checking out.

Some clips:
http://www.youtube.com/user/shobuaikidoofboston

[gzregorz]

As far as more xgy people could demonstrate the goods, I disagree.

[somatai]

I agree it is a human body, but I di think there are unique qualities that can be developed.......as stated previously I respect your posts and knowledge as well as your sensible approach to training,but I do think some of this is very hard to concretize through theory or language,you can draw a good map but.....I do think the methodology followed over time with intense curiosity and some solid guidance is key...fwiw

[D_Glenn]

This is a good thread with a lot of good points.

One of the many arguments I had with Siggy before he kicked me off his board was over why Chen style taiji, particularly village Chen, should be regarded as the "full banana" real-deal CMA while other lines of taiji (or, heaven forbid, other CMA) were treated as second-class citizens. Although I disagreed with Sigman's reply, I did think it was well considered and worth repeating here.

Basically, he acknowledged that while there were impressive skills in other styles of CMA, including "external" styles, most lineages of CMA were mired in secrecy and tended to change a lot over time and from practitioner to practitioner. From the perspective of a researcher gathering specimens of an alien substance ("Internal Power"), the other CMA were relatively "unstable" and therefore unsuited to objective study. What the village offers is a CMA collective which exhibits some consistency in its methods across a wide range of subjects. Not to mention a relatively open curriculum by CMA standards.

Like many of the discussions in that community, I thought Sigman's reply reflected a real JMA bias -- namely, that standardization in the martial arts is a good thing. (In large part, that's the mentality which drove me away from JMA in the first place.) Moreover, having come to the CMA from JMA myself, I think that Chen style holds a certain intuitive appeal for JMA practitioners. Its mechanics -- broad, deep, sunken, centered, not particularly agile by CMA standards -- are a shorter leap from JMA than other styles like bagua.

I think that Sigman and his buddies came to CMA with the preconceived notion that the dantian/hara is where it's at -- with, IMO, a pretty crude and half-baked idea of exactly what it is. Since that's what they were looking for, that's what they found. In our conversations he couldn't quite accept the idea that there were styles which didn't emphasize the dantian as strongly as Chen did, or that they might have a different take on it. Thankfully, I know better than to get involved in conversations like that these days.

AK

Excellent post! This exactly the sort of information I was hoping for when I took a gamble and started this thread.

Thanks.

.

[shawnsegler]

I would assert that it's not-- it's a human body, plain and simple. If someone can't describe what they're doing in terms of the basic movements of the human body, then they just don't understand it.

I have to disagree with this statement.

If you're given good information that's a start. From their it's a process of self-discovery and hard work. If you think that skill can be transmitted by just saying "it's like this, yo!"...well, I have to beg to differ.

I've stated many times that Luo really changed the way I move after a seminar with him, but if I hadn't already put in years of self-exploration I don't think that would have happened.

Anyway, my 2c.

Best,

S

[gzregorz]

Thanks for confirming my impressions nosword as to why jma people would choose the Chen.

I also agree that the jma community seems to have a one size fits all, which is why I said I'd probably do Russian stuff if I wanted a locking and throwing set.

I'll never understand why people don't realize that when something leaves a village it can still progress.

[windwalker]

 (That's not because 99.9% of students suck-- it's because most so-called teachers suck at teaching)

why not say that it's hard to get even with a good teacher, teaching the skills they seek..

.(In the book Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden, he talks about Sgt. Paul Howe. He mentioned that about 180 motivated Soldiers began the Delta screening and that only 12 or so graduated.)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 119AAusWXv

not everyone is able to achieve what they want..