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Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:16 pm
by Andy_S
As noted above:

There is damage, and there is pain.

Damage can mechanically prevent a person from continuing to fight/attack.

Pain - not so. Many people have high pain thresholds, especially when adrenalized. So any technique that relies purely on pain - eg a pinch to the inner thigh, a spearhand into the armpit, a finger into the clavicle - is really going to be low-use, or used to gain only a very short advantage at best.

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:25 pm
by SteveBonzak
To quote someone who I should probably not name..."There are some people who you just have to shoot."

-Steve

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:34 am
by Michael
SteveBonzak wrote:To quote someone who I should probably not name..."There are some people who you just have to shoot."

-Steve

Ha, ha, I was thinking the exact same quote from CM.

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:57 pm
by jonathan.bluestein
Michael wrote:I think it's an inborn quality of someone's energy system to be resistant to physical force. When I did martial arts for about a year, I found that no amount of force on my pressure points (except eyes and throat) had any effect on me whatsoever. Joint locks could be uncomfortable, but I was pretty slow to respond. A full power strike to my solar plexus made it tough to breathe for a short time, but did nothing to prevent my reaction or immediate ability. A full-on punch to my CV-26 (upper lip under the nose) by a combatant wearing two large rings made me hesitate for half a second. There was some minor swelling later.

Changes to my energy system since those bygone days have blessed me to become sensitive to things I could not even feel prior. Now I feel punches and sparring is no fun.

In addition to boxers and other athletes, you've also got Hollywood stuntmen, who I'm sure are skilled, but they must have a very powerful energy system to sustain such impacts and keep on ticking. I think it's mostly due to wei qi. Just an educated guess.


Have you perhaps considered that you may have had a syndrome related to your nervous system which the martial arts had somehow cured?

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:37 pm
by Michael
Have you perhaps considered that you may have had a syndrome related to your nervous system which the martial arts had somehow cured?


Based on that background, I don't think it's possible the MA cured a neurological problem relating to pain resistance.

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:47 am
by jonathan.bluestein
Thanks a lot for sharing Michael.

Have you perhaps seen this phenomenon occurring the other way around - with 'normal' people gaining these abilities through some form of practice or intervention?

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:31 am
by Michael
You're welcome, JB. I could say more in the right venue to get into details and complexities about which I can only make educated guesses, and maybe firm up the outlines of some fundamental concepts at play. Maybe we'll have a chance to talk at some time in the future.

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:59 pm
by meeks
bailewen wrote:This just goes to show, there are disadvantages to joint locks that rely on pain. One of the advantages to Aikido, when it's done well, is that it does not depend on pain. It's more like Taiji in that you are supposed to blend perfectly with the incoming force and redirect it. When done well, there is nothing to fight against. You just lose your balance and get led around. "pain" never figures into the equation.

I had never thought of a person who just doens't feel pain but the example of someone who is drunk, high (on certain things) or even psychotic has been always been a common one, IME.


Agreed. I feel that in the beginning joint locks are about localized pain to the joint and later the joint lock is about controlling the person's root through the connection created by locking the joint 'through the limb' rather than 'at that spot'. Pain at that point is the icing on the cake rather than the cake itself as the real goal is about controlling their root.

Re: People who cannot feel pain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:43 pm
by jonathan.bluestein
meeks wrote:
bailewen wrote:This just goes to show, there are disadvantages to joint locks that rely on pain. One of the advantages to Aikido, when it's done well, is that it does not depend on pain. It's more like Taiji in that you are supposed to blend perfectly with the incoming force and redirect it. When done well, there is nothing to fight against. You just lose your balance and get led around. "pain" never figures into the equation.

I had never thought of a person who just doens't feel pain but the example of someone who is drunk, high (on certain things) or even psychotic has been always been a common one, IME.


Agreed. I feel that in the beginning joint locks are about localized pain to the joint and later the joint lock is about controlling the person's root through the connection created by locking the joint 'through the limb' rather than 'at that spot'. Pain at that point is the icing on the cake rather than the cake itself as the real goal is about controlling their root.


You two would be surprised at how much more difficult it is to do this once a person as described is involved. Because they don't feel discomfort, one needs to go through a much longer level/movement to make them move like one wishes. I had the guy described (about my height and weight) fully cooperating with me, and it was still considerably more difficult to move him than some martial artists 30kg heavier and 20cm taller. The only way to move that guy around was to either cause him damage, or be very close to doing so. This is, however, when trying to use imbalancing through joint locks. That's not my thing anyhow. Other methods and shenfa worked pretty well on that guy - he did not have any more balance than the average Joe. In fact, I suspect the locks where helping him cling to something, while other methods did not.

From Michael's description, I think he can attest to that. The lowered sensitivity is a whole-body thing - it's not localized to their feeling of the particular lock. So the spine, too, does not feel too stressed. I suspect that in turn, this naturally make these people stronger than average, if not very strong, over time. This is because when they lift things, move things around, etc, it happens as well - they are not easily challenged, so they push their limit with many physical activities. They'd carry more groceries. They'd move heavier furniture. They'd go the extra few pullups and pushups in gym class... etc.