Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Fubo on Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:06 am

Tom wrote:In connection with the existence of various "animal" frames in Yang Sau-chung's teaching, a gent from Singapore, Y. Wu, who had trained a particular Shaolin style in Hong Kong wrote (back in 2006):

When I learned Yang Shaochung’s version of taiji through a friend who studied (and for a few years also lived with) with Chu Kin Hung who now teaches in London there was never any mention of animal forms. The only forms mentioned were the long form and a secret fast form. Perhaps my friend weren’t privy to the secret transmission of the 3 animal forms. Perhaps……………

Fast forward to more than a decade later and I was learning from a teacher in Hong Kong. This teacher mentioned that a long time ago (I didn’t asked for details then as I wasn’t interested to know back then) Yang Shaochung came to their school to challenge his grandmaster.
After trying conclusions (I won’t say who lost or won but the inference here is quite clear), Yang Shaochung stayed for some time to learn. How long I am sorry to say I didn’t ask also. What was interesting is that the Shaolin system that Yang Shaochung learned also emphasized on the animals of snake and crane. I was also told that there were 8 more animals and it should not come as a surprise that one of the eight animals was the tiger.


That's an interesting take. Seems like there's no shortage of anecdotal evidence whenever it comes to MA history. Here's some of mine, LOL. Ip Tai Tak taught the 3 variations of the long form and the "Cheung Kuen" fast form to his students. The sequence of the long form stayed the same, with some variations in body method (regarding the tiger and snake variations). The variations of "animals" were not specific techniques or shapes, but slight variations on the way the body moves... so to my understanding, have little in common with any Shaolin animal forms I've seen... So unless YSC was practicing some other form that none of his students seem to practice or know about, it's hard to connect those dots. It seems like these stories that are handed down from 2nd hand, 3rd hand sources, are typically generations removed, where someone's grandmaster is always beating up someone else's. I guess it comes down to what one decides to believe based on the understand and material they know.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Tom on Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:50 am

Fubo wrote:It seems like these stories that are handed down from 2nd hand, 3rd hand sources, are typically generations removed, where someone's grandmaster is always beating up someone else's. I guess it comes down to what one decides to believe based on the understand and material they know.


Not unlike the history of religions in that sense. 8-)
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Fubo on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:54 pm

Indeed.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Michael on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:19 am

My dad can beat up your dad.

Oh yeah? My see-foo can beat up your dad!

Well my god can beat up your see-foo. Hah!

How do you know? Did your god ever fight my see-foo?

No. My god doesn't do sport. He's too deadly.

Okay, you win.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby kwanb on Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:01 am

Hi Everyone, haven't posted on the forum for a while, but an interesting article on Yang Style which I have translated for my blog on here. Hope it adds to the discussion.

http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot. ... ay-of.html
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Steve Rowe on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:42 pm

Great blog, thank you.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:25 pm

i was told ma was a student of chen ting hung
it sure looks like him doing applications in the back of chens book
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Bugang on Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:35 pm

extrajoseph wrote:
Taichiturtle wrote:
extrajoseph wrote:Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan.


That would have been after he got knocked out by Ip Tai Tak in push hands.


Funny you should say this, I was in one of Howard Choy's Taiji workshops a few years back and during the lunch break, he told us the story how he visited Ip Tai Tak with Chen Yong Fa and after their initial pleasantry they did push-hands together on his Pok Fu Lam rooftop, with Chen watching. In the beginning it went smoothly, but then Ip suddenly charged into Choy with a push and Choy, because he was also practicing Choy Lee Fut with Chen Yong Fa at the time, he reacted by stepping back and checked Ip with a Pak and wacked him one on the upper forearm, he nearly fell over and that was the end of their visit. Choy was lamenting that he should not have done that if he wants to find out information from Ip, but the action and reaction happened so quickly, he did it before realizing what he has done.

He also told us he visited Chu Gin Soon in Boston and he found Chu and his students have good skills; especially the way they can Peng.


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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Bugang on Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:38 pm

extrajoseph wrote:Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan. A family style is just something we choose to wear on the surface; like a coat it has no form without a body below to shape it. We should not worry too much about what is on the surface, it does not matter whether it is Chen, Yang, Wu, Tiger, Crane, or Snake or whatever one choses to “wear”, what is hidden underneath shapes what is visible on the surface and a trained eye can appreciate the difference.

You can read it on his HP: He went away from the Yang Style because he couldnt/didnt want to afford YSCs "Franchise Contracts"
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Bugang on Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:56 pm

extrajoseph wrote:Thank you for the your link to HK Chan, again I can only see him doing the regular form, if he has studied with ITT for over a decade, surely some of the snake twisting, compressing, open/close movements would be visible in his form. What I don't understand is YSC had many students and 3 disciples, none of them showed any snake tendencies, only after ITT's death do we see his disciples doing the sanke style, we don't see any in others, including Howard Choy I mentioned earlier in the beginning of this thread (when he does the form slowly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIHmB8hDOyU), and he is suppose to be a private student of YSC. What would be your explanation? I was also wondering when Sifu Choy in this video (see link belwo) doing the Fajin in the Yang form, would he be using some of the snake twisting, compressing, open/close movements to do so? What I am trying to say is may be the snake is hidden in the regular already, your valuable comments would be appreciated, I am trying to make sense of all the stuff I can see on Youtube re YSC's Taijiquan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIb59GTiF1s

The Video of Howard Choy was shot 26+ years after YSCs Death after a long time of Chen Style Study. Frankly speaking, it seems to me there is not very much of the YSC "Stillness in Motion-Flavor" at all in Choys performance. And a lot of what GSChu Lineage would interpret as double weighting or lack of distinciton of yin and yang.
As for HKChan, you can also read his books, there are none of the "Snake Style" Characteristics to be found there..
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Bugang on Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:45 pm

extrajoseph wrote:Speaking about CXW's short forms, according to Howard Choy, the 39 Yang short form he put together, based on what YSC has taught him in HK (by eliminating all repetitions), was done with the help of CXW while living and learning with him in Sydney, CXW taught Choy how to fajing with every one of the 39 movements, does it look like a Yang form or a Chen form in the two clips I posted earlier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIHmB8hDOyU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIb59GTiF1s

I find it interesting that someone is trying to synthesis the Chen in the Yang form, I would have imagine this process was like when YLC first went to Beijing and start modifying the Chen he learned in Chenjiagou to create his Yang family form.


I have not seen the Videos this time because today my PC doesnt like youtube, but from seeing his Videos before I know that there is not much of YSC Taijiquan Principles left in his forms, no clear wight distribution, no clear direction of Yi (instead the sideways actions typical for Chen Style). Nothing about his Taiji, I think it is good! But shifting to the Chen Way he lost his Yang...
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Bugang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:03 pm

Hey all,
I got the information of there being a book by Yang Zhenji (in Chinese) showing the Yang Medium Frame Form ( so it PROBABLY IS NOT the book on the Yang Big Frame shown here Image [url]http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/products/book
[/url]

Anyone knows about that other Book by Yang Zhenji?

Unfortunately I don't even have the Chinese Characters for Yang Zhenji to search the Net...
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Frank Bellemare on Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:16 pm

Hi Bugang, I did a quick search and here is Yang Zhenji's name in Chinese: 杨振基
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Bugang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:58 pm

(bow)
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby driftwood on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:22 am

Pardon me for skipping to the end of this thread without reading all of the posts as I am slightly younger (while still being a broken down middle-aged martial arts bum) than you geezers with direct experience of this situation and all the politics associated with it, In my opinion.... Taiji is fundamentally based in the Taiji classics not animal styles. If we wish to speak to snakes... ideas represented with animal concepts when combined with high level neigong can be phenomenal. I met He Jin Bao this past year and he laid it all out there for anyone with the clear vision to see .... and/or feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw5g20yajOE
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