Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:19 am

extrajoseph wrote:Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan.


That would have been after he got knocked out by Ip Tai Tak in push hands.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:21 am

SCMT wrote:Hell how much do you think Yang Zhenduo (who originally claimed to have learned from his father) actually learned by the time he was 10 (he was born in 1926 and his father died in 1936). Truth is he learned mostly from his brother Yang Shouzhong


He learned from Fu Zhong Wen. Yang Zhen Ji spent alot of time with Yang Sau Cheung.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:27 am

Andy_S wrote:SCMT:
In historical terms, I cannot prove that today's Chen style is similar to what Chen Wangting or even Chen Changxing taught. But we do have photos of Chen (Xiaojia) form from about 90 years ago, and they are virtually identical to today's stylists. So if there was only minimal stylistic variation between 1920 and 2013, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that there was equally minimal variation between the 1820s and 1920s (a period which encompasses the time Yang LC learned in Chenjiagou). Moreover: Given that there was virtually no MA media back then, and poorer transport/communications, ergo fewer chances for cross-pollination, I would even say that stylistic variation was less likely in the pre-modern times than in modern times. Today, there are a huge variety of influences and potential influences; that was much less the case back then.

And there is NOT a huge stylistic variation in today's Chenjiagou-area arts (at least to my eyes). Of the four main variations today - Laojia and Xinjia (both "Dajia," or large frame); Xiaojia or "Small Frame;" and the more recent Huleijia or "Thunder Style" - they are all very recognizably the same art. The bu-fa, shen-fa, movement sequence, fajing - are all very much on the same page. I suspect even a layman with no MA knowledge could see this. Hell, even Zhaobao is recognizable as Chen (xiaojia).

This is not the case with Yang style, even though Yang style is a younger art: The variations, even in basics, look much wider. Take a look at some of the clips Yuen Ming, who has spent a lot of time in Yongnian, has posted.



in the case of Chen I agree, there is not a big difference between Loajia and XInjia but in the cases of the other styles you listed they have changed or were changed to from other styles and they are younger than Yang.

But it does appear the Yang has changed more than Chen but we do not know exactly what Yang Luchan learned either, per Chen Xiaowang he learned Loajia Yilu, and nothing else and he learned it looking through the fence. Also per Chen Xiaowang you need Laojia Erlu to truly understand Chen Taijiquan and its applications. However there are some other accounts based on historical research the say Yang Luchan was an excepted student of Chen Wangting but they still seem to agree he only learned one form and that possibly is Laojia Yilu.

But then we have no pictures of videos of what Yang Luchan did ot Yang Jianhou or Yang Banhou or Yang Shouhou. We have pictures of Yang Chengfu when he was young and when he was older but no videos, so it is really hard to tell exactly how much it has changed. And all the claims out there of "this is the original Yang style" or this is the "Yang style of Yang Banhou" or "the secret Yang family style" I tend to look at more as sales than historical fact. But that does not mean that these older forms no longer exist, I just find it highly unlikely that what I have seen on YouTube is legitimate. As to "Secret forms" , in my opinion, those are complete fabricated rubbish for sales purposes only.

However I do tend to believe it changed a lot and I also tend to believe Yang Chengfu knew it and wanted to add another empty hand form to compensate but he died before it could be finished.

And as a bit of a side note, I have trained some Chen (Laojia Yilu, Chansijing, 18 form) and would still be if there was a Chen person in my area with the skill level and understanding of it like my sifu has of Yang style (from Tung Ying Chieh), but sadly there was not and still is not so I’m a Yangster.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:32 am

Taichiturtle wrote:
SCMT wrote:Hell how much do you think Yang Zhenduo (who originally claimed to have learned from his father) actually learned by the time he was 10 (he was born in 1926 and his father died in 1936). Truth is he learned mostly from his brother Yang Shouzhong


He learned from Fu Zhong Wen. Yang Zhen Ji spent alot of time with Yang Sau Cheung.


My bad, sorry.

Point is that he did not learn all that much from his father as he was claiming a few years back, but then he was also claiming the Yang family line of Yang Shouhou had died out or gone missing, yet my sifu knew, his entire life in Hoing Kong, that they were in Hong Kong. But not to long after that there was an amazing discovery by the current Yang family heads....amazing Yang Shouhou's descendants lived in Hong Kong….who knew ;)
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Yuen-Ming on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:40 am

SCMT wrote:Point is that he did not learn all that much from his father as he was claiming a few years back, but then he was also claiming the Yang family line of Yang Shouhou had died out or gone missing, yet my sifu knew, his entire life in Hoing Kong, that they were in Hong Kong. But not to long after that there was an amazing discovery by the current Yang family heads....amazing Yang Shouhou's descendants lived in Hong Kong….who knew ;)


Where do you gather this info, if I may ask?

Shaohou had a son very early in life who was in the care of Zhao Bin and that part of the family for quite a few years, then moved west (Guangxi or Yunnan, I can't remember at hand) and passed away very young of opium-related problems.
He did not practice Taijiquan

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:45 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:
SCMT wrote:Point is that he did not learn all that much from his father as he was claiming a few years back, but then he was also claiming the Yang family line of Yang Shouhou had died out or gone missing, yet my sifu knew, his entire life in Hoing Kong, that they were in Hong Kong. But not to long after that there was an amazing discovery by the current Yang family heads....amazing Yang Shouhou's descendants lived in Hong Kong….who knew ;)


Where do you gather this info, if I may ask?

Shaohou had a son very early in life who was in the care of Zhao Bin and that part of the family for quite a few years, then moved west (Guangxi or Yunnan, I can't remember at hand) and passed away very young of opium-related problems.
He did not practice Taijiquan

YM


I'd never heard this either - was just about to investigate.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:49 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:
SCMT wrote:Point is that he did not learn all that much from his father as he was claiming a few years back, but then he was also claiming the Yang family line of Yang Shouhou had died out or gone missing, yet my sifu knew, his entire life in Hoing Kong, that they were in Hong Kong. But not to long after that there was an amazing discovery by the current Yang family heads....amazing Yang Shouhou's descendants lived in Hong Kong….who knew ;)


Where do you gather this info, if I may ask?

Shaohou had a son very early in life who was in the care of Zhao Bin and that part of the family for quite a few years, then moved west (Guangxi or Yunnan, I can't remember at hand) and passed away very young of opium-related problems.
He did not practice Taijiquan

YM


Followed the Yang family webpage for awhile and watched the changes, the family tree lineage chart even got changed. Also talkes with my sifu, and never said Shouhou line was doing Taijiquan and as far as my sifu knows in Hong Kong they were not, but they did exist, and I probably should not have said entire, that I do not know, only Shaohou had family there.
Last edited by SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:53 am

Taichiturtle wrote:
Yuen-Ming wrote:
SCMT wrote:Point is that he did not learn all that much from his father as he was claiming a few years back, but then he was also claiming the Yang family line of Yang Shouhou had died out or gone missing, yet my sifu knew, his entire life in Hoing Kong, that they were in Hong Kong. But not to long after that there was an amazing discovery by the current Yang family heads....amazing Yang Shouhou's descendants lived in Hong Kong….who knew ;)


Where do you gather this info, if I may ask?

Shaohou had a son very early in life who was in the care of Zhao Bin and that part of the family for quite a few years, then moved west (Guangxi or Yunnan, I can't remember at hand) and passed away very young of opium-related problems.
He did not practice Taijiquan

YM


I'd never heard this either - was just about to investigate.



I hope you can find it but much of this was from the Yang family webpage and they changed it and thier claims. But this had to be within the last 8 years, The rest is from my sifu who I tend to believe based on other discussions we have had about this.
Last edited by SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:12 am

Yang Zhao Xiong (Shao Hou) (1862-1930)

-Yang Zhen Sheng (1878-1939)

--Yang Yu Pin (1935-)
----Yang Min Xia (Fem. 1969-)
----Yang Zi Min (1966-)
----Yang Yong Jun (1962-)
------Yang Fan (1989-)
--Yang Wen Zhong (Jin Pin) (1931-1989)
----Yang Su Ying (Fem. 1965-)
----Yang Shu Ying (Fem. 1963-)
----Yang Shu Fang (Fem. 1950-)
----Yang Shu Lin (1958-)
------Yang Jie (1982-)
----Yang Shu Min (1956-)
------Yang Jing (Fem. 1981-)
--Yang Wen Bin (Pin Er) (1927-)
----Yang Yue Mei (Fem. 1958-)
----Yang Yong (1956-)
------Yang Dan Dan (1983-)

I believe it is this last part of Yang Shaohou's family that is in Hong Kong that starts with Yang Wen Bin but it could be any one of the childern of Yang Zhen Sheng, to be honest it was awhile ago and I do not remember which one or which ones are in Hong Kong

Also this use to end at Yang Zhen Sheng
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/tr ... lytree.jpg

One day they were claiming no decendants and then the next the family tree got expanded

This entire section just appeared on their site a few years back. Now it could be legitimate, maybe they did not know, maybe they believed there was no one left of that line and it came as a surprise to them since things were not exactly kept track of all that well for a period in China.
Last edited by SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:22 am

SCMT wrote:Yang Zhao Xiong (Shao Hou) (1862-1930)

-Yang Zhen Sheng (1878-1939)
----Yang Yu Pin (1935-)
----Yang Min Xia (Fem. 1969-)
----Yang Zi Min (1966-)
----Yang Yong Jun (1962-)
------Yang Fan (1989-)
-Yang Wen Zhong (Jin Pin) (1931-1989)
----Yang Su Ying (Fem. 1965-)
----Yang Shu Ying (Fem. 1963-)
----Yang Shu Fang (Fem. 1950-)
----Yang Shu Lin (1958-)
------Yang Jie (1982-)
----Yang Shu Min (1956-)
------Yang Jing (Fem. 1981-)
-Yang Wen Bin (Pin Er) (1927-)
----Yang Yue Mei (Fem. 1958-)
----Yang Yong (1956-)
------Yang Dan Dan (1983-)

I believe it is this last part of Yang Shaohou's family that is in Hong Kong that starts with Yang Wen Bin. This entire section just appeared on their site a few years back. Now it could be legitimate, maybe they did not know, maybe they believed there was no one left of that line and it came as a surprise to them since things were not exactly kept track of all that well for a period in China.


So Yang Wen Zhong - presumably Shao Hou's sone - but born a year after he died?
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:26 am

Taichiturtle wrote:
extrajoseph wrote:Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan.


That would have been after he got knocked out by Ip Tai Tak in push hands.


Funny you should say this, I was in one of Howard Choy's Taiji workshops a few years back and during the lunch break, he told us the story how he visited Ip Tai Tak with Chen Yong Fa and after their initial pleasantry they did push-hands together on his Pok Fu Lam rooftop, with Chen watching. In the beginning it went smoothly, but then Ip suddenly charged into Choy with a push and Choy, because he was also practicing Choy Lee Fut with Chen Yong Fa at the time, he reacted by stepping back and checked Ip with a Pak and wacked him one on the upper forearm, he nearly fell over and that was the end of their visit. Choy was lamenting that he should not have done that if he wants to find out information from Ip, but the action and reaction happened so quickly, he did it before realizing what he has done.

He also told us he visited Chu Gin Soon in Boston and he found Chu and his students have good skills; especially the way they can Peng.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:27 am

Taichiturtle wrote:
So Yang Wen Zhong - presumably Shao Hou's sone - but born a year after he died?


No, I made a mistake in the copy paste and I just corrected it, sorry about that. I did not notice that untill after I posted.

This is from the Yang family site, http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/tree/ again sorry about the error.

Sorry about the error

You should have seen the original I ended up with...actually you can...it looked like this

Yang Zhao Xiong (Shao Hou) (1862-1930)Yang Zhen Sheng (1878-1939)Yang Yu Pin (1935-)Yang Min Xia (Fem. 1969-)
Yang Zi Min (1966-)
Yang Yong Jun (1962-)Yang Fan (1989-)


Yang Wen Zhong (Jin Pin) (1931-1989)Yang Su Ying (Fem. 1965-)
Yang Shu Ying (Fem. 1963-)
Yang Shu Fang (Fem. 1950-)
Yang Shu Lin (1958-)Yang Jie (1982-)

Yang Shu Min (1956-)Yang Jing (Fem. 1981-)


Yang Wen Bin (Pin Er) (1927-)Yang Yue Mei (Fem. 1958-)
Yang Yong (1956-)Yang Dan Dan (1983-)


But I should have been mor careful before posting, once again, sorry
Last edited by SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:00 am

Just did some looking and if it helps that limb of the Yang Family tree under Yang Zhen Sheng grew sometime around April 2007. However the link to the old family tree is dead and comes up with an Apache Tomcat HTTP Status 500 - error
Last edited by SCMT on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Michael on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:06 pm

You might be able to use archive.org to look at old versions of that page. I am not into the particulars of this thread, but a few years ago there were versions of the Yang family lineage on the Chu Gin Soon and John Ding web pages, in addition to the Yang family. There was someone on EF back in 2007 who was talking about the same thing and the different web sites came up for comparison.
Last edited by Michael on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:29 pm

grahame i was not questioning your linage,just wanted to know more about the form.
the line at the bottom of your page answered all.
i first met howard choy when he was teaching the24 step in the choy li fat club in the chinese youth league in sydneys china town.
howard stated at the time that he didnt have all the secrets of tai chi but did with clf.
his main teacher at that time escapes my fading memory but he was the clf master.
the next time i saw howard he was training with earl and his students teaching tony ward amoung others the broadsword.
he confirmed earls connection with yeung sao chung and gave me the impression they had only both spent a short time with ysc.
howard ran the clf club until chen yong fa came out and took over.
it was yong fa who introduced him to chen zao wang when he came to aus. in the late 80,s
i know nothing of his connection to fu as i had moved to a farm in the north by that time.
if you look at howards site it seems to be mainly yang style with a bit of clf and chen thrown in when fa jing is required.
i just thought as i was there at the time i should give a historical perspective.
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