Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:34 am

No matter what names we give to a Taiji form, if it is good it is good, if not the name does not matter, and if it is a fake, we can tell over time, especially when we keep on striving to better ourselves each day.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Andy_S on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:04 am

Rob

I think it is pretty obvious that early reports WERE significantly exaggerated.

Even so, it seems very obvious that this style of combat and its practitioners in the 19th century were tremendously respected among their peers in Old Peking. Given today's mighty clouds of smoke, there probably was some fire back in the day.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:09 am

Andy_S wrote:This is the odd thing about the Yang style: There seems to be massive stylistic variation - rather than simple modification - within just three generations.

OTOH, if you look at the other styles - Chen, Wu, Hao, Zhaobao, etc - they are all much more similar across these generations (or, in the Chen style, probably longer).



Well speaking as a Yangsters ;D That is not exactly correct and yet it is to some extent.

The Chen we see today may have been changed. There has been some speculation that Laojia Yilu and Laojia Erlu come from one set that was developed by Chen Wangting and then you get Xinjia yilu and Xinjia Erlu from Laojia yilu and Laojia Erlu. Now Xinjia and Laojia are not vastly different, but they are different and we have no idea what Chen Wangting actually came up with. Zhaobao, well that is either form the same source as Chen Taijiquan with a later infusion of Chen Taijiquan from Chen Qingping or I was whatever the Zhaobao people were doing with a latter infusion of Chen form Chen Qingping. Hao style is a combination of Chen and Yang that has been changed to Hao style. Now let’s look at Wu style, it is Yang style that has been changed but it too has been changed within Wu. There is Northern Wu which is supposed to be closer to the original of Wu Quanyou and Wu Jianquan which they learned from Yang Luchan (or Banhou depending on who you want to believe) but then it goes South and it too changes and if you look at Southern Wu (the Wu now practiced by the Wu family in Canada) and Northern Wu in Beijing they are different.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:22 am

Doc Stier wrote:
Andy_S wrote:This is the odd thing about the Yang style: There seems to be massive stylistic variation - rather than simple modification - within just three generations.

OTOH, if you look at the other styles - Chen, Wu, Hao, Zhaobao, etc - they are all much more similar across these generations (or, in the Chen style, probably longer).

But it is interesting to debate what the original curricula were, and why these curricula managed to produce two (arguably, three) generations of super-fighters. Then - suddenly! - it is an exercise for old ladies just one generations subsequent.

I can't think of another example in history of a form of combative technology transitioning so very radically.

The "massive stylistic variation" seen within the ranks of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan is simply due to the vast numbers of people who have pursued learning this style since it first became openly available to the general public during the early years of the 20th century. Up until the 1980's, the Yang style was the most popular style of tai-chi chuan worldwide, claiming as many practitioners as all other styles combined by most estimations, primarily due to the fame of the early family masters. Unfortunately, when large group classes taught in public venues for limited time periods replaced the older norm of individual students learning from a master in private one on one training sessions or small training groups for many years time, the average skill level quality among students declined dramatically overall.

Attrition rates were very high in these group classes, just as it often is today, but new students continued to appear, eager to learn. More people were practicing Yang style tai-chi chuan than ever before, but the number of students who were willing to study long enough and train seriously enough to successfully master the style was much lower than ever before. However, those with only a very basic, short term learning experience often dropped out far too soon to teach others. The result has been nearly as many different interpretations of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan as there were teachers thereof.

Additionally, the new focus on practicing only slowly and softly for health and self-cultivation, often being advertised solely as an exercise for health and longevity, or as a moving meditation, all but insured that most students wouldn't be introduced to the older martial aspects of the art. And the fact that these skills disappeared so quickly after Yang Cheng-Fu's modifications is a testimony to how different his revision is from the older family versions of the style.

If current family leaders of the Yang style and other major tai-chi chuan styles are practicing the same methods used by their predecessors, why aren't they demonstrating the same skill levels as previous generations did? The same training methods should produce the same results in serious practitioners of any style across the board. Instead, it is known that the earlier masters of every major tai-chi chuan style, and their best students, typically demonstrated tremendous internal energy development and combat application skills which have been only rarely seen in the past 75-100 years time, especially in the post-1940 era to date.

I contend that this is due to changes made in the training regimens of each style by subsequent family members. This has gradually included changes in the form sets, changes of stylistic performance, as well as changes in practice agenda priorities. These trends in every style have resulted in a dramatically changed overall perspective regarding what should be practiced, how it should be practiced, and why.


All true and add to that, Yang Chengfu taught a lot of people but he did not consider all of those people his students. If you see a list of his students it is rather short compared to all those that claim to have train with him. Come forward a generation and his students do the same exact thing and you get a whole lot of people who may or may not actually understand what Yang style really is and they start changing things to fit their needs and at times combining other arts they learned with that. I saw one not too long ago that was allegedly from Yang Chengfu but it had an awful lot of Bagua in it.

And then you get changes due to body type. People are bigger taller heavier thinner and they cannot all do the style exactly the same. Hell, if you look at static photos of Yang Chengfu in a posture when he is young (and thin) compared to when he was older (and heavier) they are different. Now are the different because he changed it or is it different because he could no longer do it that way….

Then of course the "secret" forms show up and the "Original" forms (that have no lineage proof behind them)

Now factor all this in over 3 to 8 generations, depending on how far back you go....
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby yeniseri on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:56 am

Yang Chengfu taught a lot of people but he did not consider all of those people his students. If you see a list of his students it is rather short compared to all those that claim to have train with him.................
Then of course the "secret" forms show up and the "Original" forms (that have no lineage proof behind them)


This is my understanding or lack thereof ???
Words, their meaning and subsequent understanding are not always the same across social milieu. There are many people who studied with Yang Chengfu who are not even on his list of 'approved' students and that list, according to many, was changed after his death. Even close family (non Yang surname) are at times, treated as usurpers by so called lineage so the bottom line has to be what each person brings to the table and how they represent the art. I am still not sure what lineage is, despite my many years but again, I imagine that anyone who studies with a teacher, belong to that lineage. I realize we have brought up lineage many times but what exactly are we talking about when we nvoke lineage! This brings lineage to a new level of ad nauseaum stink, I assume ???
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:26 am

yeniseri wrote: I am still not sure what lineage is, despite my many years


I'll leave it to someone more eloquent than I:

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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby SCMT on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:54 am

yeniseri wrote:
Yang Chengfu taught a lot of people but he did not consider all of those people his students. If you see a list of his students it is rather short compared to all those that claim to have train with him.................
Then of course the "secret" forms show up and the "Original" forms (that have no lineage proof behind them)


This is my understanding or lack thereof ???
Words, their meaning and subsequent understanding are not always the same across social milieu. There are many people who studied with Yang Chengfu who are not even on his list of 'approved' students and that list, according to many, was changed after his death. Even close family (non Yang surname) are at times, treated as usurpers by so called lineage so the bottom line has to be what each person brings to the table and how they represent the art. I am still not sure what lineage is, despite my many years but again, I imagine that anyone who studies with a teacher, belong to that lineage. I realize we have brought up lineage many times but what exactly are we talking about when we nvoke lineage! This brings lineage to a new level of ad nauseaum stink, I assume ???



It is rather amazing but after his death...the list did get longer... and secret styles started popping up too... And some of those that are famous today may have been some of those that were added...well...later.

Hell how much do you think Yang Zhenduo (who originally claimed to have learned from his father) actually learned by the time he was 10 (he was born in 1926 and his father died in 1936). Truth is he learned mostly from his brother Yang Shouzhong
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby extrajoseph on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:06 pm

Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan. A family style is just something we choose to wear on the surface; like a coat it has no form without a body below to shape it. We should not worry too much about what is on the surface, it does not matter whether it is Chen, Yang, Wu, Tiger, Crane, or Snake or whatever one choses to “wear”, what is hidden underneath shapes what is visible on the surface and a trained eye can appreciate the difference.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Andy_S on Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:13 pm

SCMT:

SNIP
The Chen we see today may have been changed.
SNIP

In historical terms, I cannot prove that today's Chen style is similar to what Chen Wangting or even Chen Changxing taught. But we do have photos of Chen (Xiaojia) form from about 90 years ago, and they are virtually identical to today's stylists. So if there was only minimal stylistic variation between 1920 and 2013, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that there was equally minimal variation between the 1820s and 1920s (a period which encompasses the time Yang LC learned in Chenjiagou). Moreover: Given that there was virtually no MA media back then, and poorer transport/communications, ergo fewer chances for cross-pollination, I would even say that stylistic variation was less likely in the pre-modern times than in modern times. Today, there are a huge variety of influences and potential influences; that was much less the case back then.

And there is NOT a huge stylistic variation in today's Chenjiagou-area arts (at least to my eyes). Of the four main variations today - Laojia and Xinjia (both "Dajia," or large frame); Xiaojia or "Small Frame;" and the more recent Huleijia or "Thunder Style" - they are all very recognizably the same art. The bu-fa, shen-fa, movement sequence, fajing - are all very much on the same page. I suspect even a layman with no MA knowledge could see this. Hell, even Zhaobao is recognizable as Chen (xiaojia).

This is not the case with Yang style, even though Yang style is a younger art: The variations, even in basics, look much wider. Take a look at some of the clips Yuen Ming, who has spent a lot of time in Yongnian, has posted.

The answer may well be Doc's comments above.

While Yang style is a younger art, taught by a much smaller corpus of master instructors (ie the Yangs and perhaps the Tungs), it has had far, far more popularity than Chen style in the last 100 years, and been disseminated far more widely. Ergo: More stylistic variation.

This is why it IS interesting to know what the first and second generation Yangs' art looked like/consisted of though we can never conclusively prove this.

Doc says further that there is very close correspondence between his "Old Yang" sets and today's Chen style. This makes sense to me (I should add here that I do Chen style) as all sources do, indeed, state that Yang LC learned his art in Chenjiagou. Yet it seems many Yang and Wu people do have a problem with this kind of contention. ("Chen style is not 'real' Taiji; Yang Lu-chan learned a kind of Chen-style MA that was totally different to what the rest of the villagers learned;" etc, etc, etc.)
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:19 am

Andy_S wrote:...
and the more recent Huleijia or "Thunder Style" - they are all very recognizably the same art
...


Yes, recoginzable as of the same root, they are. But according my personal experience, the basic body methods and the immanent inner works are a totally different animal, I never have seen or heard of in any Chen frame or new/older Yang styles.

I really wonder, where Li Jingyan has gotten those differences from.
Lately, Dietmar Stubenbaum, a very important small frame representative, has told me, that Li's form in earlier years was clearly small frame, but what I know as "sudden thunder", why is that so totally different? :o
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Andy_S on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:31 am

Deutscher:

Can't argue with ye as I never learned any Hulei...but I did attend a demo at a master's house in Wangedan. While there are lots of twiddly bits, I think it is still the same frame: Bufa, shenfa, posture sequence and fajing (ie the fact that the fajing IS built into the forms) mark it very clearly as Chen-based.

Where did the extra/different material come from? I have no idea, and as it has no link to Yang style, may be irrelevant to this thread....
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:38 am

The only common thing I see is posture naming and sequence (from Qi Jiguang or even earlier), Bufa is absolutely and totally different, same for shenfa and fajing (many other arts do fajing in their forms, that's not only Chen TJQ), and I trained with 3 of the big guys personally and also know a little new frame.

But of course, it is OT for this thread, sorry.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Andy_S on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:55 am

Deutscher:

I'd respectfully disagree.

The rounded half-horse stance is used instead of bow-n-arrow in all Chen lineages; stepping looks to be similar if not identical; and while the mechanics of the fajing may, indeed, be different, the fact is that fajing is built into the forms of all Chen lineages, while it does not appear in the forms in ANY other lineages...or, at least, in the orthodox and/or common forms.

But to avoid derailing this interesting thread, I'd suggest we take this discussion elsewhere - see thread I have just started.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:19 am

extrajoseph wrote:Howard Choy must have felt the same way, that the Yang Family style is tired and spread too thinly. He went on to study with Chen Xiao-Wang after Yang Sau-Chung and Fu Sheng-Yuan in order to further his Taijiquan.


That would have been after he got knocked out by Ip Tai Tak in push hands.
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Re: Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

Postby Taichiturtle on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:21 am

SCMT wrote:Hell how much do you think Yang Zhenduo (who originally claimed to have learned from his father) actually learned by the time he was 10 (he was born in 1926 and his father died in 1936). Truth is he learned mostly from his brother Yang Shouzhong


He learned from Fu Zhong Wen. Yang Zhen Ji spent alot of time with Yang Sau Cheung.
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