Yang Shou-Chung, Chu King-Hung and Erle plus Snake Style

[Tesshu]

So why just settle for Snake Taiji?

"The snake is looooooooooooong, seven miles....."

Pah, it's just a name. On the other hand this thread is really interesting.

Yang Lu Chan (or someone else later on) moved away from emphasising silk reeling (Chen) towards emphasising peng jin (Yang) maybe just out of personal preferences or abilities. The rest is....................................secret.

[Ba-men]

Snake style???

Warning... I'm going to be controversial...But I'm not going to troll ... I'm going to state my beliefs and some facts and leave it alone...

Somehow in the mysterious world of the Neijia, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flaps it's wings like a duck... when someone with a Han name tells us its a snake ... we believe him....

There is no evidence of any animal style within the original Yang Taijiquan format.. In fact I'll go even better... There is no real evidence of an "Old Yang style" that is different than what Yang Chen fu taught... Chen fu taught the same stuff as Shou Hou taught... What Shou Hou and Chen fu taught..... they learned from their father Jian Hou and their uncle Bon Hou. And they learned from their dad Yang Lu Chan... . (People want to point to the delivery... i.e one expressed his art with large circles... one did it in small circles... one was more martial than the other... etc... etc .... as SOME GREAT HUGE difference... its not! More actual physical evidence that debunks the "old Yang style mythology" or a snake style for that matter.... Ponder this... The physical similarities between Chen fu's art and the Hao and Wu styles... Example... Wu Yu-hsiang (i.e. Hao style Creator...) was taught by Yang Lu Chan and Ch'en Chin-ping (I think cousin to Ch'en Chang-hsing who taught Yang himself ) ... Wu Ch'uan-yu became the senior disciple of Yang Ban-hou... Wu created .. Wu style. All three are practically the same art.... or I SHOULD SAY "HAVE MORE IN COMMON THAN THEIR DIFFERENCES"

Were is the close door "old Yang old style" ? WHERE???


Because of a second cousin a hundred years ago supposedly kept the "secret flame" and only passed it on to the most worthy... has "Old Yang Style" survived...NOT !!!! There is no actual physical evidence except what is above... WHICH points to NO "OLD Yang Style" Did a second cousin add to Yang Lu Chan's style... Probably.... Maybe... Sure.... But there is no evidence that it was Yang Lu Chan's original style...or that there ever was a pre and post Yang Taijiquan different that what Chen Fu did..... Because some distant cousin says so Again the only Physical evidence is what we have above.... No snake... No Lion, No Crane... In fact a lot of the names of the postures in In Yang , Hao and Wu correspond to the Chinese Constellations...Not animals. Can't argue against the "Physical Evidence" that points to Ch'en Chang-hsing teaching Yang Lu Chan some small frame "house style" that his family practiced. (why else is Yang's style so different than the Chen Village style??? ) And that Yang Lu Chan taught Wu Yu-hsiang (supplemented by Ch'en Chin-ping... a relative of Ch'en Chang-Hsing ) ..... Yang taught his son's Jian Hou and Ban Hou. Bon Hou taught Wu Ch'uan-yu.... Chen Fu and Shou Hou were taught by their father and their uncle... All though some of u will try to argue against the physical evidence by pointing to some second uncle, distinct cousin etc etc... My self personally ... I attribute Chen fu's slothfulness in passing on his families art as the main cause to the myth of the "Old Yang Style." or "Snake styles" etc etc And Chen Fu (and his family) and many of his later disciples.... who chose the "cultural ambassador" rather than the Quan Fa route.... as the root cause to all this...

If it quacks like a duck... walks like a duck.... flaps its wings like a duck.... Logically... "its a duck"
But in the Neijia world... Its a Snake... Ok.... u want to believe its a snake? Sure...
Wasn't it Nietzsche that said "Truth is relative to the beholder" ... Go Behold your truth...

[yeniseri]

BaMen,
You are the One!
Sadly, most people believe what they are told and refuse to acknowledge the truth because it will dfefeat them even before the little finger is raised. No doubt 'stuff' was changed or modified since an alleged Old Yang style. Yes, stuff is missing but the format is there, even as shown by family Fu Zhongwen, Zhao Bin, Zhang Qinglin and others.
If I am asking a question, I would ask Where wold I go to find the missing link in martial Yang style. We all hear that Yang Luchan refused to each non Han but I am seeing that many of the more elaborate Yang routines taught (actually retained) were those of the Manchu group, who happened to be at the helm in the Qing dynasty.

[Bao]

.. There is no real evidence of an "Old Yang style" that is different than what Yang Chen fu taught... Chen fu taught the same stuff as Shou Hou taught... What Shou Hou and Chen fu taught..... they learned from their father Jian Hou and their uncle Bon Hou. And they learned from their dad Yang Lu Chan... . (People want to point to the delivery... i.e one expressed his art with large circles... one did it in small circles... one was more martial than the other... etc... etc .... as SOME GREAT HUGE difference... its not!

Excellent post. This is exactly why I say that if someone "invented" the Yang large frame, it was daddy YLC and not Yang Cheng Fu. From what I have understood, yLC taught imperial officials and that he had to make some changes to what he taught more public. A scholar believed that his changes were cosmetical only to make the practice more beautiful. I tend to agree. There are no Hugh differences in any tai chi.

[Yuen-Ming]

Not going to argue with your points of view, guys, but please note that there is a difference between "there is no evidence" and "I have no evidence"

YM

[yeniseri]

The BMJ mantra "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"!

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Can't argue against the "Physical Evidence" that points to Ch'en Chang-hsing teaching Yang Lu Chan some small frame "house style" that his family practiced. (why else is Yang's style so different than the Chen Village style???
SNIP

Hold everything: There is physical evidence that Chen taught Yang a small frame "house style?" I am familiar with Chen Small Frame ("xiaojia") - this art is still alive and kicking, notably in Chenjiagou and Xian - but what is this "house style" you speak of?

If you have physical evidence, kindly present it. I wait with bated breath...is this the "missing link?"

[bailewen]

I'm confused

Apparently the old style Yang I do from a pre-YCF lineage doesn't exist. I bet Doc Stier is gonna be dissapointed as well.



Whatever floats yer boat I guess.

[bailewen]

FWIW, a few links on the history of the non existent pre YCF style I train:

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1290221.htm
http://www.wushuweb.com/x1/forum.php?mo ... tid=389409
http://www.baike.com/wiki/%E5%85%AB%E5% ... A%E6%9E%81

[Andy_S]

Bailewen:

RE: Old Yang style
Clearly, your shit is bollocks.

Give it up and find a CMC teacher. Or would the Beijing 24-step be more to your taste? I understand that while the former art is popular with hippies and push-pushy-pushers, the latter system has produced a generation of terrifying fighters, widely feared for their deadliness with handbags and Zimmer frames.

[Michael]

I fear them for the horrid music they play in the parks.

[Doc Stier]

Apparently the old style Yang I do from a pre-YCF lineage doesn't exist. I bet Doc Stier is gonna be dissapointed as well.

Most interesting indeed that my Sifu learned the supposedly non-existent Small, Medium and Large Frame form sets from Yang Chien-Hou and Yang Shao-Hou more than 10 years before Yang Cheng-Fu published and presented his Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set, which has been taught as the Yang Family standard since his death in 1936. Hmmm!

The Small Frame and Medium Frame sets were more private proprietary routines, while the Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set was intended for instruction of the Imperial Prince and for members of the Divine Skills Batallion and other Imperial Guard Brigades of Manchu Bannermen at the Forbidden City by Yang Lu-chan and his son, Yang Pan-Hou. This latter large frame set is NOT the same routine that is often presented nowadays as the Yang Style Long Form, which is essentially an artificially expanded renumbering of Yang Cheng-Fu's Modified Large Frame set from 85 forms to 108 forms, apparently in order to market it as the famous older set.

Lastly, if there was in fact no Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan Large Frame Form Set already being taught and practiced by students of the first two generations of Yang family masters, what exactly did third generation master, Yang Cheng-Fu, modify in formulating his own modified large frame routine?

[Ba-men]

bailewen

I'm confused
Apparently the old style Yang I do from a pre-YCF lineage doesn't exist. I bet Doc Stier is gonna be dissapointed as well.
Whatever floats yer boat I guess.
bailewen on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:04 am
FWIW, a few links on the history of the non existent pre YCF style I train:

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1290221.htm
http://www.wushuweb.com/x1/forum.php?mo ... tid=389409
http://www.baike.com/wiki/%E5%85%AB%E5% ... A%E6%9E%81

Me too... I'm kinda confused too... Not to be a wise guy... In Zhang Feng Jie's book.....( the Author??? ) Publish in 2000 (or was it 1994? ) my Mandarin isn't as good as it used to be... titled "Bagua Taijiquan" ISBN 7-5009-2095-4 he states that the style is more Bagua than Taijiquan.... and judging by the Quan shown... it is.... That is your linage right? or have I gotten that wrong, if so... my bad and I apologize for assuming.... . If so.... what looks to be be Yang Taijiquan influenced doesn't look anything different than what Chen Fu was doing or for that matter Wu Yu-hsiang or Wu Ch'uan-yu I.e. the Hao or Wu styles... Where is the "Old Yang Style"?

Because Zhang Feng Jie's Bagua Taijiquan can trace "Some of the arts influences" in its linage to Yang Lu Chan... that's OLD Yang Style??? ? If so... then by that logic.... Chen Fu's art holds more weight as being a "truer form" of and "Old Yang Style" after all he was family...

For me, it comes down to .... The belief that somehow Yang Lu Chan was teaching a totally different art to his family and then teaching something totally different to outsiders like Wu Yu-hsiang or Wu Ch'uan-yu (both styles created years apart... ) just doesn't hold water to me. If so... then... why didn't Shou Hou or Chen fu's art look different than both the Hao or Wu styles? Its clear that they all are cut from the same cloth. Chen fu was family... right? So are we to believe that Yang lu Chan taught his real art to his uncles and cousins, but not to his actual sons Jian Hou or Bon Hou? Are we to believe that Jian Hou didn't teach his dad's art to both his sons? Conspiracies Abound lol The fact that all three arts are cut from the same cloth created at different times is the "smoking gun" i.e. the physical evidence that there is no "old Yang style" other than what one see of the Hao, Wu of YCF's styles... To believe Chen fu made up his art? I can't belive this .... again because it looks to much like the Wu and the Hao which where created when he was a child. YES YCF Watered down the art, softened it up for the masses...Yes!!! especially in his later years... but made it up from scratch? Not the Quan,(i.e. the form)

Post by Doc Stier
Most interesting indeed that my Sifu learned the supposedly non-existent Small, Medium and Large Frame form sets from Yang Chien-Hou and Yang Shao-Hou more than 10 years before Yang Cheng-Fu published and presented his Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set, which has been taught as the Yang Family standard since his death in 1936. Hmmm!

Long ago I saw film of someone doing a small circle Quan said to be from Shou hou (in the film this person claimed to be a disciple)... rare indeed... If your speaking of this.. then are we "splitting hairs?" Because outside of the small frame it looked a lot like Yang family style...

If we all disagree its cool...No biggy I got to stop... anymore and I'm trolling... and that's not cool.

[bailewen]

If we all disagree its cool...No biggy I got to stop... anymore and I'm trolling... and that's not cool.

I can tell from the context that you aren't trolling at all so much as just stating what I believe to be your honest opinion regardless of the fact that you know ahead of time it's something likely to ruffle some feathers. No biggie. I waited a few days before responding just to make sure I could do so without getting overly cantankerous or anything.

In Zhang Feng Jie's book.....*snip*... he states that the style is more Bagua than Taijiquan.... and judging by the Quan shown... it is.... That is your linage right?

I am not familiar with the guy. Don't know his lineage but I was able to dig up his form online:
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/MWkhzXZQBg0/

I am hard pressed to find any connection between what is being shown here and what I learned. I found info on his lineage in 2 places, ironically, one of them is an announcement here on RSF:

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15893
http://www.pandahi.com/1000753470.html

I am not clear why his VCD is shown in the baike article as his name does not appear anywhere in the content.

Because Zhang Feng Jie's Bagua Taijiquan can trace "Some of the arts influences" in its linage to Yang Lu Chan... that's OLD Yang Style??? ? If so... then by that logic.... Chen Fu's art holds more weight as being a "truer form" of and "Old Yang Style" after all he was family...

What I train is not officially called "baguataijiquan". That is just a popular nickname. The official name of the form is "Yang Style Old Frame 103". When you try to google it, you tend to get a lot of so called "bagua taijiquan" hits because the lineage comes down from Wu Junshan who was more famous for Bagua. I made a point of trying to find links that did not from our own internal family records. The most widely accepted lineage is roughly as follows:


Guo Yunshan is missing from the chart. He should be there along side Dong Haichuan and Yang Luchan as the form incorporates plenty of Xingyi as well. YLC created the form based on input and experiences with DHC and GYS.

In any case, it is not a matter of "Yang influence". It is a straight up Yang style form and the basic performance flavour is pretty classic Yang. Where it differs is in that there is a much greater diversity of technique. Bagua footwork has been layered on top of various Yang style methods and Xingyi bits such as beng quan, "tiger pounces" and even various Bagua hand methods like piercing or single palm changes can be found throughout.

... To believe Chen fu made up his art? I can't belive this .... again because it looks to much like the Wu and the Hao which where created when he was a child. YES YCF Watered down the art, softened it up for the masses...Yes!!! especially in his later years... but made it up from scratch? Not the Quan,(i.e. the form)

Of course he didn't make it up. He obviously based it on his grandfather's art. And I wouldn't say "watered down" or "softened up". He simplified it. It's a process that it patently obvious to me after having watched my own teacher create a simplified version of the 103 that is his core art. We now have a 36 step form that can be learned in a couple weeks if you already have a decent foundation. On account of having trained the 103 for some years before ever learning the 36, I was able to pick it up basically in an afternoon. Same moves I already knew, just memorize the sequence and how to streamline the moves (ie. how much stuff you can leave out)

It only takes about 6 or 7 minuted to perform and, while clearly based on the 103 and full of good stuff, vast amounts of material has been removed. IMHO, there's still a hell of a lot more useful stuff in there than the Beijing 24 but there is no denying that it is a vastly simplified version of the original. Shifu created it, AFAIK, for similar reasons to why YCF created his. The reasons for the 36 are:

- easily learned.
- sometimes you don't have a full hour to practice. A 5-7 minute form is great for lunch breaks or stuff like that.
- more suitable to public performances. Again, nobody is going to sit and watch an hour of Taiji as some temple festival.
- it can be shared publicly which is good for promoting the style. The 103 is absolutely inner door stuff. No public video allowed.

In any case, while clearly not "the" old frame Yang, it's obviously "a" old frame Yang. It's not what Doc teaches but the differences from the YCF version are dramatic enough.

[Doc Stier]

In recent years, there have been many naysayers who insist that the Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan taught and practiced by family members prior to the version developed by Yang Cheng-Fu is the same art. They usually offer this opinion apparently even without having ever seen the older form sets for comparison. If they haven't personally seen or learned these older form sets, they argue that such forms can't possibly exist and never did. Wow! That's some totally brilliant deductive reasoning there! Really? Seriously?

Yang Cheng Fu left behind only one solo form with several variations, which his book calls the Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Solo Set. His solo form set was not one of the original Yang Family form sets. It is an abbreviated solo form set with a simplified performance style which he developed for public teaching by editing and modifying an earlier 'family hands' form set (jia-shou-xing). This simplified solo form was designed to make it easier for students to learn Tai-Chi Chuan, and introduced a shift in training priorities from a personal fighting art for individual use to a health exercise and self-cultivation art for the masses.

He succeeded marvelously, but at the cost of sacrificing most of the martial training methods practiced by the previous generations of his family. Yang Cheng-Fu was so successful in popularizing his style in this way that second and third generation members of other Tai-Chi Chuan families followed his example in similarly editing and modifying the original form sets of their family styles also, thus sacrificing most of the martial elements received from their family predecessors as well.