the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Bao wrote:
Boyd teach a lot of old people. His style doesn't seem very low or different from any standard yang either.

That's because ITK's "snake" style is not categorizes by height.

Fubo wrote:

Bao wrote:
Boyd teach a lot of old people. His style doesn't seem very low or different from any standard yang either.

That's because ITK's "snake" style is not categorizes by height.

Then how is it categorized and what characteristics of the snake is different from Tiger?

Bao wrote:

Fubo wrote:
That's because ITK's "snake" style is not categorizes by height.

Then how is it categorized and what characteristics of the snake is different from Tiger?

The "crane, tiger and snake" are versions of the same form with the same mechanics, the differences being more to do with their heights and weight distributions (as far as I've learnt). The "snake style" follows pretty much the same choreography, but the mechanics are different, and as a result produce a "snake" like quality to some of the movement, which I assume is why it was named the "snake style".

I would say more like a bear than a snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUDL-bYYkm8&noredirect=1

The way ITK performed it had a very snake like quality. Either way, I'm not sure who came up with the name "snake style", but names don't really matter that much IMO, as long as the form does what it's suppose to do.

Fubo wrote:

Bao wrote:

Fubo wrote:
That's because ITK's "snake" style is not categorizes by height.

Then how is it categorized and what characteristics of the snake is different from Tiger?

The "crane, tiger and snake" are versions of the same form with the same mechanics, the differences being more to do with their heights and weight distributions (as far as I've learnt). The "snake style" follows pretty much the same choreography, but the mechanics are different, and as a result produce a "snake" like quality to some of the movement, which I assume is why it was named the "snake style".

It's interesting, but it doesn't explain much for me. I would like to hear more about the mechanics. For me, good tai chi is good tai chi and good tai chi mechanics are good tai chi mechanics. In the end, or in advance levels, there are not much differencies between tai chi styles, not much at all.

I suppose at times it has to do with how the torso twists to produce the potential for release, or how the spine waves in certain ways, or how the chest and back open and close etc... It has a more extreme feeling of compression and release compared to other yang style forms ive practed. the combination of all these things some how gives it a sense of a more snake like movement. It plays with entering or striking from angles where at times the arm travels more on an arc. I feel like a lot of it has to do with the transitions between postures as oppose to any significant differences between the actual postures themselves. Not a great description, I know, but I'm a bit tired right now and may come up with a better explanation after some sleep. A video would probably be easier to explain, but I wouldn't be a great example as I don't practice it anymore. And haven't done so in quite a while.

Hi Fubo, This is Ip Tai Tak doing the form posted up by SnakeStyleTaiChi, I cannot see any snake-like movements you mentioned as in torso twist or spine waves or chest and back open and close or greater compression and release, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_iDfPYCLqg
Any reason why you don't practice it any more?

Hi Extrajoseph, this is ITT doing the regular form, it has some similar elements shown, but also some not shown. There is very minimal torso movement and less working of angles than what ive seen. I have this original tape too, as he gave all his students a copy as reference material. the twisting, compressing, open/close aspects i mentioned happen pretty subtly, sometimes more obvious. My main focus now is Baguazhang as I prefer the training methods, strategies and range of technical possibility for stand up fighting.

On a related note, for those interested in Ip Tai Tak's teachings should also check out HK Chan from Hong Kong. He studied personally with Mr. Ip for over a decade on a weekly basis and has a wealth on knowledge on his teachings. Here's a link to video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_V-yCADrJ1M

Thank you for the your link to HK Chan, again I can only see him doing the regular form, if he has studied with ITT for over a decade, surely some of the snake twisting, compressing, open/close movements would be visible in his form. What I don't understand is YSC had many students and 3 disciples, none of them showed any snake tendencies, only after ITT's death do we see his disciples doing the sanke style, we don't see any in others, including Howard Choy I mentioned earlier in the beginning of this thread (when he does the form slowly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIHmB8hDOyU), and he is suppose to be a private student of YSC. What would be your explanation? I was also wondering when Sifu Choy in this video (see link belwo) doing the Fajin in the Yang form, would he be using some of the snake twisting, compressing, open/close movements to do so? What I am trying to say is may be the snake is hidden in the regular already, your valuable comments would be appreciated, I am trying to make sense of all the stuff I can see on Youtube re YSC's Taijiquan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIb59GTiF1s

As for HK Chan, he is teaching a beginners seminar, so I'm guessing he presenting material that's appropriate for that... Plus the form is practiced different ways. As for why a lot of YSC students don't show these elements (ITT did, as did his other students), I have my understanding, but I don't really want to get into the politics of it, which is kind of where this would head. I don't really know Howard Choy so I can't really say what he does. At the end of the day, if you like the ITT material, it doesn't really matter how other people do things differently or what the forms are called, IMO.

Regarding Snake, Crane, Tiger, i found these words pretty interesting: http://ritaichi.com/value-of-tai-chi/ti ... snake-form

Fubo wrote: It has a more extreme feeling of compression and release compared to other yang style forms ive practed. the combination of all these things some how gives it a sense of a more snake like movement. It plays with entering or striking from angles where at times the arm travels more on an arc. I feel like a lot of it has to do with the transitions between postures as oppose to any significant differences between the actual postures themselves.

Ok, thanks for trying to explain. I have watched Boyd's vids and he says that the snake style shenfa made difference for him. But I see nothing special in there. BTW, what I have understood, the vid on IP should show the Tiger form.

Palenque wrote:Regarding Snake, Crane, Tiger, i found these words pretty interesting: http://ritaichi.com/value-of-tai-chi/ti ... snake-form

Thanks. Although I didn't like the article very much.

IMO, Tai chi should always both crane and snake at the same time. Smaller and straighter movements are snake movements. Larger, bolder and more stretched movements are crane movements. How they blend into each other should correspond with kai/he changes. Other animals or names, including tiger movements are either crane or snake movements. All movements in the forma are either yin movements (snake) or yang movements (crane). Therefore it's very strange to separate forms or methods into one animal symbol. In tai chi, everything is both yin and yang, blending into each other.

Bao wrote:
IMO, Tai chi should always both crane and snake at the same time. Smaller and straighter movements are snake movements. Larger, bolder and more stretched movements are crane movements. How they blend into each other should correspond with kai/he changes. Other animals or names, including tiger movements are either crane or snake movements. All movements in the forma are either yin movements (snake) or yang movements (crane). Therefore it's very strange to separate forms or methods into one animal symbol. In tai chi, everything is both yin and yang, blending into each other.

I'm not sure I agree with the article either Bao, but I took from it that the snake style had the most Yin/Yang balance, and that it was the most advanced style. At least that much makes sense.

Yet, to your point, I think there is benefit in practicing Tai Chi different ways. I do the Yang Style to practice big, long, structural movements, but I alternate with Chen style to practice coiling and sitting more in between the legs as appose to being mostly on one leg or the other as in Yang Style. I used to think you could blend both of that into the one perfect form, but I don't see the point anymore. Different forms emphasize different things, why not just practice them separately if you have the time?

daniel pfister wrote: I used to think you could blend both of that into the one perfect form, but I don't see the point anymore. Different forms emphasize different things, why not just practice them separately if you have the time?

Well yeah, good point. I also practice Yang form, Sun form and drills for different reasons. Some of the shenfa will change due to different focus, differemt footwork etc. But I don't really believe in that you should be loyal to a style and that you must practice in a certain way or try to have a CMC shenfa when you do the CMC form or a wu shenfa when doing a wu form etc. I believe more in developing your own shenfa and try to be loyal to yourself and not let stylr thinking compromise your development. It doesn't need to be a perfect form, but you need to have the perfect shenfa for yourself, a shenfa that utilize all of your knowledge and experience.