Hand or foot first?

[Martin2]

Hello everybody,

here a may be interesting insight I got from the physiotherapists:

Before one can do an external movement (whatever) the changing of the body structure has to be first compensated by the internal stabalizing muscels. This starts always at the fixpoint (which is normally the ground - and so in the feet).

Example: One is just standing upright, arms at the side of the body. One wants now to lift the right arm to the side: Before this can be done, the internal stabalizer muscels (starting in the foot - leg - body and so on) reprogram the structure in the body to compensate the movement.

In our Tai Chi (Ma Jiangbao wu-style) we follow the outside order of the movements hand - waist - foot (still as a whole body movement), but even done outside like this still the inside order has to be that stabalizers start in the foot - body - arms.

Interesting, isn't it. May be some confusion of what you see and what you feel come from this.

Of course with a good feeling one feels the development of power from the ground to the hands, even when the outside movement starts in the hand. May be the strong feeling of "beíng centred" comes also from this. Outside and inside movement works in opposite direction. The centre is the "unmoved" middle of the two movements.

Just a thought - I hope I got it right and was able to explain my thoughts. Very difficult to talk about without showing it.
(May be the exampler with the arm is clearer, when you want to lift a good box of german bear - then it is obvious that one needs to restructure, otherwise one falls over.)

Greetings

Martin2

[cdobe]

(May be the exampler with the arm is clearer, when you want to lift a good box of german bear - then it is obvious that one needs to restructure, otherwise one falls over.)

... and the bear will eat you.

[GrahamB]

I notice I also fall over after drinking many good German beers

[mixjourneyman]

I notice I also fall over after drinking many good German beers

mmmmmmm German beer......

[Bao]

Hello everybody,

here a may be interesting insight I got from the physiotherapists:

Before one can do an external movement (whatever) the changing of the body structure has to be first compensated by the internal stabalizing muscels. This starts always at the fixpoint (which is normally the ground - and so in the feet).

The "b /b" quote is very, very good. But I don't agree that the stabilizing structural muscles has to do with the feet or ground. What stabilize the structure is the muscles in the back, mostly the lower back. (You can not even have a good root without understanding center) But when you move your arms, then another important era is the space between the shoulder blades. A movement should always be supported from the center, but a physical movement can be initiated from the hand. You can even treat the hand as totally disconnected from the rest of the body. If this help you to relax, build speed and movement, then why not? But the movement must be supported from the whole structure and alignment. Put upon impact when you strike, or if blocking a strike, the structure must always be supported from the spine and back. This is about posture and alignment.

But it is also important to understand that the functional support from the back when actual striking or blocking, will be very different from just working in air with empty movements of the form. This is extremely important to understand when you solo practice form. You must try to use your body as you had real pressure against you, letting the spine and the muscles of the back work like they were in actual usage! You will always see that a person who understand the martial usage of each movement will move very different from a person who only practice for health. The first person will (or should) activate the muscles in his (or her) body in a very different way from the second person.

Therefore, the original question should not be "Hand or foot first?" but "how does the foot support the hand?"! From practical practice, as push hands, apps and other basic exerecises, this will become clear. The original question was formulated in a very "form-ish" manner. Form should summarize and express everything else you have learned. But at the same time, form should not be a too big part af your style practice. Don't let "form thinking" dominate your art. The knowledge which is important is all functional and comes from practical practice as push hands, apps work and even actual fighting, but almost never from the form itself. Form is in itself empty, but should express everything else you have learned.

[xiranyma]

Hello everybody,

here a may be interesting insight I got from the physiotherapists:

Before one can do an external movement (whatever) the changing of the body structure has to be first compensated by the internal stabalizing muscels. This starts always at the fixpoint (which is normally the ground - and so in the feet).

The "b /b" quote is very, very good. But I don't agree that the stabilizing structural muscles has to do with the feet or ground. What stabilize the structure is the muscles in the back, mostly the lower back. (You can not even have a good root without understanding center) But when you move your arms, then another important era is the space between the shoulder blades. A movement should always be supported from the center, but a physical movement can be initiated from the hand. You can even treat the hand as totally disconnected from the rest of the body. If this help you to relax, build speed and movement, then why not? But the movement must be supported from the whole structure and alignment. Put upon impact when you strike, or if blocking a strike, the structure must always be supported from the spine and back. This is about posture and alignment.

But it is also important to understand that the functional support from the back when actual striking or blocking, will be very different from just working in air with empty movements of the form. This is extremely important to understand when you solo practice form. You must try to use your body as you had real pressure against you, letting the spine and the muscles of the back work like they were in actual usage! You will always see that a person who understand the martial usage of each movement will move very different from a person who only practice for health. The first person will (or should) activate the muscles in his (or her) body in a very different way from the second person.

Therefore, the original question should not be "Hand or foot first?" but "how does the foot support the hand?"! From practical practice, as push hands, apps and other basic exerecises, this will become clear. The original question was formulated in a very "form-ish" manner. Form should summarize and express everything else you have learned. But at the same time, form should not be a too big part af your style practice. Don't let "form thinking" dominate your art. The knowledge which is important is all functional and comes from practical practice as push hands, apps work and even actual fighting, but almost never from the form itself. Form is in itself empty, but should express everything else you have learned.

You definitely know what you are talking about! No doubt you are a good player to me!

But I have to say that your disagreement to Martin show, at least to me, that you have something missed in your practice comparing to Martin. Sorry to say this.

[Bao]

You definitely know what you are talking about! No doubt you are a good player to me!

But I have to say that your disagreement to Martin show, at least to me, that you have something missed in your practice comparing to Martin. Sorry to say this.

Thank you for your kind words. Can you please explain what you think I missed in what I wrote?

I think that what we write on boards like this sometimes have very little to do with our actual practice, what we know and do not know. Some people know how to write much and very convincing about things they know very little about or have no a clue about at all! You really need to meet a person IRL to understand if he knows what he speak about. But discussions are also good.

[xiranyma]

You definitely know what you are talking about! No doubt you are a good player to me!

But I have to say that your disagreement to Martin show, at least to me, that you have something missed in your practice comparing to Martin. Sorry to say this.

Thank you for your kind words. Can you please explain what you think I missed in what I wrote?

I think that what we write on boards like this sometimes have very little to do with our actual practice, what we know and do not know. Some people know how to write much and very convincing about things they know very little about or have no a clue about at all! You really need to meet a person IRL to understand if he knows what he speak about. But discussions are also good.

Dear Bao,

According your words, I know you are able to use some upper part of your body, I guess you are talking about waist. That really good skills. And the classic also make it very clear that you are right to use this part ( not only waist, including hips) as the center of your movement.

But the part you might missed is: you did not agree with Martin that you need to go down to your feet first. So you missed the lower part of your body.

Using your upper body, your waist, give you some great advantage. To do so, you act more quickly than using lower part of your body, your knees or your feet, for example. But if you are playing with someone who would base lower than your do, feet for instance, you would feel the problem to deal with them. Just like some one who would base their movement on their shoulders had problem to deal with a guy like you who base on waist.

To sum up, you have good skills. But basing on upper part of our body leave some potentials to go lower, and further.

I agree talking a lot of bullshits could not really be helpful to us.

Nice weekend!

[xiranyma]

Again, Classic made clear statement: to use your waist as center. But the Classic also made it very clear that every thing should be from your root, feet. Seems we need two center?

No. If your entire body is ready, you can use your waist as a shortcut.

Since Bao did not agree with Martin to go to feet, so I thought Dear Bao might miss something.

[Bao]

You see, I really don't care which lead, foot or hand.

I was happy to see someone else using the expression "feeling the foot in the hand", because that is what it is about. The connection is instant without delayment. Even before you walk, you must first establish your zhongding, or central equilibrium. But yes, when you take a step or shift you weight, usually the foot will lead before the hand. But when you fight, your hand need to reach to strike or block as fast as possible. Sometimes the hand must reach out totally disconnected from the rest of the body, and then upon touch with your enemy, suddenly and instant "connect" with the ground. Whatever you do, still, the waist era will be the center of your body. That does not mean that it is ok to loose your root. You must control your root, but again without understanding centerline and your bodys physical center, your root will mean nothing of value.

Have a nice weekend

[xiranyma]

My pleasure to discuss with you! As you have made it very clear: on internet, we cannot really pass serious information. I fully understand what you are talking about, and I do believe you have good skills according to your words, especially you mentioned the way of connections of hands and feet, a happy surprise!

But I insist what I said, the missing. Forgive me, Dear Bao. I insist Martin has better understanding of this topic.

[dragontigerpalm]

To my nooby mind Bao's assessment seems right on target as it addresses the reality of disconnecting and reconnecting.

[xiranyma]

To my nooby mind Bao's assessment seems right on target as it addresses the reality of disconnecting and reconnecting.

you are surely not nooby head!! Bao's target is great! To a great target, we need some great approaches.

[dragontigerpalm]

To my nooby mind Bao's assessment seems right on target as it addresses the reality of disconnecting and reconnecting.

you are surely not nooby head!! Bao's target is great! To a great target, we need some great approaches.

I would surely appreciate an explanation of this post.

[Martin2]

Hello Bao,

here some physics (as I am was taught).

For every movement of a body you need a steady fix point, where the opposite movement needed (newton-law) develops.

So there are two possibilities:

If the centre of gravity is moving in the space, this fixpoint is the ground (for example in a spaceship without contact to the ground one can't move forward just by moving the body - you need contact to a wall).

If the centre of gravity remains still one can twist one part of the body against the other. This movement is nearly impossible. See my example. If one is just standing and lifting the right arm (with or without a german bear/beer - do you know that half of the breweries in the world are located in germany) the center of gravity moves to the side (attentation - the center of gravity is not located in the dantian it is moving all the times with the movement of the body). So you need compensation against the ground in the left foot.

These things are easy to check. My friend André Oelofse from body technology in Cape Town/SA has a little monitor with electrodes which you can put on you muscels. Even if you want to move just the little right finger first the muscels in the feet start to compansate. Interesting to play with these little machines - but in the end simple physics.

Attentation - if you sit, it starts not in your feet but in your bump, because the chair is the fix point.

For me the is a playfull way to see the idea of yin and yang. Every movement needs internally an oppsite movement. If they are not in harmony you loose balance (to much external) or you become rigid inside (overreaction of the internal stabalizers).

So in the end nothing new - follow the masters - may be they can't express it in western scientific language, but they know and especially feel it. For example Ma Jiangbao does in Pushhands often not answering your outside movement, but influence your internal structure. The he attacks the compensation, which is not working anymore and the outside movement can thus be not effective.

Greetings

Martin2