Can of worms: double-weighted

[D_Glenn]

Couldn't have said it better myself. I guess that is why they're the classics.

From http://books.google.com/books?id=vOoexF ... #PPA114,M1 :

"If one sinks (chen) to one side (pian), then one [can] follow;
if one is double-weighted, then one is stagnant.

Chen: What is meant by "If one sinks to one side then one [can] follow," and "If one is double-weighted, then one is stagnant"? For example, if one sticks with the opponent at two points, with both points having equal force (li), when the opponent meets this force, then [both persons] will resist each other. This is what is called double-weightedness. If there is double-weightedness, then the two people are at a stalemate. It remains then that the one with the greater strength will win. If the two points have equal force, and one point is softened, then this is called sinking to one side. If I can sink to one side, then the opponent, even though he has strength (li), will not be able to make use of his strength, yet I will be able to yield (zou) and neutralize (hua)."

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[ashe]

Couldn't have said it better myself. I guess that is why they're the classics.

the problem is interpretation.

i read that and say "i know what he means by that", but i guarantee i interpret that passage very differently than many of the other guys here.

[SPJ]

Yes. It is very difficult to explain.

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I used the analogy of walking.

If you are walking, you would put most of your weight on one side of the body or one foot, and you are moving.

if you stop, or not moving, you put your weight on both of the feet.

--

This applies to hand moves, postures, etc, too.

[xiranyma]

Yes. It is very difficult to explain.

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I used the analogy of walking.

If you are walking, you would put most of your weight on one side of the body or one foot, and you are moving.

if you stop, or not moving, you put your weight on both of the feet.

--

This applies to hand moves, postures, etc, too.

Great explanation! I love it.

But this "simple" classic is one of the most important teaching in Taiji and it is much more complex than it appears. Take your walking example:the weight shift left, right, left, right, from o to 100, continuously. I am sure there is a moment that, left and right is 50 to 50. Is that moment a problem for our walking? No.

You may ask me "so what"? What I am trying to say is, 50 to 50 could also not be a problem, if you are able to change freely. If you could no more change, the percentage of weight on different legs or feet or something like that would be meaningless at all.

[D_Glenn]

It's the same interpretation I've gotten from numerous high-level teachers. And pretty 'cut and dry' if you ask me.


"If one sinks ( 沉 chen) to one side (pian), then one [can] follow ( 隨 sui);"

"if one is double-weighted (not able to 'chen' sink), then one is stagnant."


Double-weighted is a simple concept with a simple explanation. 沉 Chen (sinking) on the other hand is the skill that is neccesary to not become double-weighted and is the a little bit more difficult to explain.

The potential to become double-weighted can be seen in one's solo practice but only as the lack of being able to 'chen' sink into their legs. For example if you see someone practicing and their knees are shaking when they go low that is a clear sign of no 'chen' and they will easily be double-weighted in application.


Simply walking could be a good analogy except that people don't naturally 'chen' sink when they walk, they actually unneccesarily use a lot of force to resist the pull of gravity. That's the root problem that's addressed in the body-work methodologies. And the main reason people are told to relax, relax, relax.. when learning IMA's and learning how to 'chen' sink.

***

If you know how to 'chen' 'sink' into a leg, then standing in a 50-50 horse stance is not even an issue, one leg is sunk, one is empty.

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[Bhassler]

Yes. It is very difficult to explain.

--

I used the analogy of walking.

If you are walking, you would put most of your weight on one side of the body or one foot, and you are moving.

if you stop, or not moving, you put your weight on both of the feet.

--

This applies to hand moves, postures, etc, too.

Actually, most people stand with the majority of their weight on one foot.

As for double weighted, a simple definition would be that you are single weighted if you can move in any direction (forward, back, left, right, up, down) without preparation. Anything else is double weighted. Within that context, it doesn't matter where your weight is, how you organize pressure through your hands, etc.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

There is no martial lesson to be had in reading.

martial arts must be done to be understood. Not watched, or read about or heard about.

they are one art form that requires full tactile attention.

In other words, don't put much stock in cryptic over analysed musings. there is little if any significant value in terms of actual training.

[somatai]

"Actually, most people stand with the majority of their weight on one foot. "

agreed, but would you not say that is due to accomodate structural deviations and tension patterns....optimally the weight should be 50/50 when we are simply standing.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

just try it, and feel it.

[Bhassler]

"Actually, most people stand with the majority of their weight on one foot. "

agreed, but would you not say that is due to accomodate structural deviations and tension patterns....optimally the weight should be 50/50 when we are simply standing.

I agree with you as far as idealized physical structure is concerned, although my own preference is to deal with what is rather than what theoretically might be. For me, the real question is "can you do what you want?" Any pattern, whether it be standing or weight distribution in martial art or whatever to my mind is evaluated in light of what the individual wants to accomplish. If the pattern supports that, fine, if the pattern contradicts that, then it becomes an issue.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Couldn't have said it better myself. I guess that is why they're the classics.

From http://books.google.com/books?id=vOoexF ... #PPA114,M1 :

"If one sinks (chen) to one side (pian), then one [can] follow;
if one is double-weighted, then one is stagnant.

Chen: What is meant by "If one sinks to one side then one [can] follow," and "If one is double-weighted, then one is stagnant"? For example, if one sticks with the opponent at two points, with both points having equal force (li), when the opponent meets this force, then [both persons] will resist each other. This is what is called double-weightedness. If there is double-weightedness, then the two people are at a stalemate. It remains then that the one with the greater strength will win. If the two points have equal force, and one point is softened, then this is called sinking to one side. If I can sink to one side, then the opponent, even though he has strength (li), will not be able to make use of his strength, yet I will be able to yield (zou) and neutralize (hua)."

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To me the explaining paragraph does not speak of stances and weight distribution at all.

"If one sticks with the opponent at two points, with both points having equal force," so it reads to me like this is regarding meeting an opponent in specific ways. It sounds like he could be describing that revolving door concept that people often talk about.

[Interloper]

If you are walking, you would put most of your weight on one side of the body or one foot, and you are moving.

if you stop, or not moving, you put your weight on both of the feet.

This applies to hand moves, postures, etc, too.

I would consider the walking (putting most of you weight on one side of the body/one foot) to be the stagnant (and vulnerable) state.

[SPJ]

everything is in context.

1. stagnant or retardation meaning unable to flow or move or change. zhi 滞

we solve our hand position by rotation around the wrist, if not solved.

we rotate our elbow, if not solved

we rotate our shoulder, if not solved,

we move our step or changing chest/back facing etc.

2. heavy vs light

we always have to be heavy on end/side and light on the other. but if we may change, we are still moving.

but if we are heavy on both sides, we may not be able to change(ends/sides), then the opponent will use that to their advantage.

3. chen or sink is a whole different story. chen is actually vs lift or rise.

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in short, chen and heavy may mean different things in different context.