How Does Aikido Deal with Resistance?

[CaliG]

I realize that this is BTDT but I'm curious to hear from those EFers who have done Aikido.

I showed an Aikido guy some good push hands vidz from youtube thinking he'd understand what was up since he does a "soft" art.

But all he'd say is no, no, no in aikido you never resist and never use strength as if everything in the push hands vidz were 100% wrong, referring to people using some resistance as a last resort.

I didn't know what to say. Any EFers familiar with some high level Aikido players?

All I've seen, with the exception of O'sensei is this stuff.

[Muad'dib]

I think that you will find responses amongst aikido-ka to vary as widely as those amongst taiji stylists.

[kreese]

I watched a video from Mitsugo Saotome where they were practicing responding to resistance. Well, a little. He would pull a move, the attacked would resist, then he would counter. It was actually pretty interesting. Sorry, but I can't remember the name of the video.

[GrahamB]

From my experience (limited) they deal with resistance by telling you to stop doing it 'wrong'.

There are a lot of health benefits you get from Aikido that are often (not always) lacking in the local OAP Tai Chi class at the Y though - like working up a good sweat, conditioning, cardio, etc

[Ian]

Don't know about that, but once I had a hapkido guy tell me (via my friend... I'd never met or talked to this guy before) that he'd break my wrist before I could even touch him, because HAPKIDO > YOU!!!

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Aikido hasn't evolved in a while. It has no answers to deal with many modern tactics.
In my experience it has nothing at all that deals with short disruptive power and it is through using that that aikido consistently fails in an encounter.

It needs to be reviewed and updated.

[Michael Babin]

My sons did aikido when they were young for a couple of years and waiting around for them I also got to watch many adults practicing. It's a lovely discipline to watch when it's done well and, as someone else wrote, the practitioners do break a sweat and learn how to fall, etc. -- which puts them ahead of many taiji classes. On the other hand, the self-defense potential of it seemed "small" to say the least.

On the other hand, I have seen documentary footage of Japanese sensei who seemed to have a real idea of the use of "atemi" [striking] to set-up and supplement the "flowing" side of the aikido game. Similarly, I saw a visiting Russian aikidoist in action once at my kids' dojo once who went through their best players like a hot knife through fresh shit. He was friendly enough but he couldn't seem to understand why they were surprised when he handled them roughly and easily and flung into walls or threw them down forcefully. That was the way he was used to training.

I guess that combative standards have dropped in modern day aikido in some places, but you could say the same about a lot of recreational martial arts. There are still lots of good reasons to do that art when you have competent instruction.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Cali G, are you referring to the aikidoka using strength to execute a technique or the uke resisting the technique instead of going with it and rolling?

[CaliG]

Hmmm...interesting question.

I'm not sure what the guy didn't like. I think he basically disagreed with using power to push or strength to resist the push. Which surprised me because I have a lot of respect for aikido. I like their ideas of blending and flowing, of course it's not new to CMAs but I figured like TJQ most people just didn't train long enough to reach that level.

Michael, that's interesting to hear. As I understand it there were 2 men in Russia who were responsible for developing sambo one of them added aikido to the mix and the other didn't. Perhaps the Russians decided to make their aikido more combative.

[Bhassler]

Aikijitsu was an empty-handed method that was part and parcel of the more complete weapon systems of the samurai. Aikido was a later creation developed more as a spiritual path for personal development. Aikido still contains most of the elements of aikijitsu, but the expressed intent in practice is (theoretically) different. Individual schools and individual practitioners run the gamut from hard core fighters to skirt-wearing dojo queens. Certainly someone can generalize and say "most aikido people are like this" just like one could say "tai chi folk are this way", but neither generalization (even if the generalization is basically correct) is of much use relative to understanding an art or an art's capacity for combat efficacy.

IF you really want to see if Aikido/aikijitsu can work in a fight, come to Colorado and go punch this guy in the nose:
http://www.shinyokai.com/Dojos_Soryushin.htm

[Fubo]

Here are a couple of vids of Aikido randori with resistance. One of the instructors, Chris Hein, is a student of Tim Cartmell's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

Some of the more refreshing stuff I've seen of Aikido material on the web... sure it doesn't have the "continuous flow" of some of the Aikido you see against fully cooperating partners, but it addresses a certain degree of realistic resistance which most of the clips on Aikido out there don't have.

[CaliG]

Certainly someone can generalize and say "most aikido people are like this" just like one could say "tai chi folk are this way", but neither generalization (even if the generalization is basically correct) is of much use relative to understanding an art or an art's capacity for combat efficacy.

Hi Bhassler,

Yeah I realize that but this isn't a bullshido thread what so ever. I hope you didn't take it that way.

It's an honest question where does aikido go once the techniques are all learned? You could ask the same question about TJQ and I could give you an honest answer.

Btw, got any vidz of that guy in Denver? I've met all sorts of people who can use their stuff from all styles, so that's not the issue. The issue is how do they apply their stuff to a boxer for example who snaps his punches back? In TJQ for example if you can't lock them, you hit them and throw them.

[CaliG]

Here are a couple of vids of Aikido randori with resistance. One of the instructors, Chris Hein, is a student of Tim Cartmell's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

Some of the more refreshing stuff I've seen of Aikido material on the web... sure it doesn't have the "continuous flow" of some of the Aikido you see against fully cooperating partners, but it addresses a certain degree of realistic resistance which most of the clips on Aikido out there don't have.

Thanks Fubo, I agree with what these guys are doing using resistance as a way to overcome resistance.

I wonder if this is how the top aikido guys trained.

[Finny]

IF you really want to see if Aikido/aikijitsu can work in a fight, come to Colorado and go punch this guy in the nose:
http://www.shinyokai.com/Dojos_Soryushin.htm

Just FWIW. Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu =/= Aikido

[Bodywork]

Here are a couple of vids of Aikido randori with resistance. One of the instructors, Chris Hein, is a student of Tim Cartmell's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

Some of the more refreshing stuff I've seen of Aikido material on the web... sure it doesn't have the "continuous flow" of some of the Aikido you see against fully cooperating partners, but it addresses a certain degree of realistic resistance which most of the clips on Aikido out there don't have.

Thanks Fubo, I agree with what these guys are doing using resistance as a way to overcome resistance.

I wonder if this is how the top aikido guys trained.

You can go to aikiweb, a site devoted to the aiki arts, and search his name, and then see how well his video's are received.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthrea ... chris+hein

This is a thread that included input and discussion from the other guy from Colorodo (who can indeed handle himself), along with debate from Sigman, myself, two guys in the thread Rob and Mark who are aikido teachers themelves and many others from the art.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15143

Aikido,(really any aiki based art) like so many arts these days is all over the place in the way each teacher expresses their understanding of the art. Since aikido, like Taiji, Bagua, Xing-I was supposed to be based on internals you can well imagine the morass in trying to "express" the art without them. Since many in the art still are tied to expressing it through doing this or that technique, then discussing their internals through discussions of that technique...well, lets just say... it gets difficult to reach a consensus.